Wave (Jobim) Analysis using Barry Harris Method

[Vladan]

x7867x Edim

Typo?Llooks like F#7 to me, Edim would have note G in it, isn't it?

[ragman1]

That minor 6 9 chord was a favourite of Wes Montgomery, that's originally where I got it from.

Also of course it makes a nice F 13 9 chord to use instead of F7.

I always loved the sound of the m69. I once wrote a blues using only m69's. Not bad... Of course I knew it was a sort of 13 but it took YOU to show me it was also a maj7b5. You don't get a lot of those :-)

Thank you, grahambob, what can I say?

[ragman1]

Typo?Llooks like F#7 to me, Edim would have note G in it, isn't it?

I saw that too because I was playing it. Being a BH thing it was going to be a dim chord so I left it :-)

[christianm77]

Jazzschool is partly Alan isn't it?

[grahambop]

Typo?Llooks like F#7 to me, Edim would have note G in it, isn't it?

Yes you're right of course, should be x7868x.

I have gone back and airbrushed it out of existence. We will not speak of it again.

[grahambop]

I always loved the sound of the m69. I once wrote a blues using only m69's. Not bad... Of course I knew it was a sort of 13 but it took YOU to show me it was also a maj7b5. You don't get a lot of those :-)

Thank you, grahambob, what can I say?

yeah I like it when a chord does a lot of jobs!

[mr. beaumont]

yeah I like it when a chord does a lot of jobs!

Now that's the Wes spirit.

From the Wes I've transcribed, when he gets to the chordal soloing chorus, about 10-12 shapes total are his "go to's," with about 5-7 of those getting most of the work. But they work as soooo many different things.

[Vladan]

... My favorite bit from Harris is where he is talking about the scale and says something to the effect of "shame on Chopin and Bach For boiling it down to this ". [Plays basic diatonic major scale whaty whaty.] :-)
...

...There's two sides to to the BH harmony thing

1) analysing progressions to building block 6-dim scales.

2) building back up using various devices developed from the 6-dim scales.

I have already read and argued with Reg on the matter about 6 months ago. No need to dig that up again. I believe we agreed to disagree?

If you don't like the sound of Barry's harmony, then presumably there is not much need for further comment.

More I try out some of the "movements" mentioned above, more wrong they sound to my ears. Maybe, if I knew more about the theory and praxis of Barry Harris' method, two way thing Christian mentioned, but still ...
... the sound ... somehow it just is not right. Like it's never really resolved, but at the same time, it's never really tense?! Maybe that is the problem, you can not have satisfying resolution without some real tension?
The other aspect of "wrong", It somewhat reminds me of my "chordal noodling", when I follow some melodic idea using bunch of 7, m7, 79(b/#), dim, half dim, +7 ... (which all, it seems, could be interpreted as 6s?) and it all sounds nice before I stop to "write it down". Suddenly, it does not sound good at all and it takes me lots of time to find actual chords that do sound good, while still sounding similar enough to organic noodling thing.
In other words, it has to sound good on all levels, moving or not, slow or fast, narrow or wide spread, strong beat or weak beat, ... before ...

So, could be Chopin and Bach actually knew what they were doing.

BTW, i'd be grateful if someone would be so nice to post the link to that discussion btw Reg and Christian (could be I've already read it at the time, but can't rteally remember what it was about.)

[ragman1]

link to that discussion btw Reg and Christian

It's a hell of a job searching through. Here's one but you better check with Reg or Christian.

Barry Harris method

[christianm77]

Yeah I dunno. I kind of oscillate between thinking 'this is hip I should do this stuff more' and 'this stuff is way more difficult on guitar than other approaches I can think of.'

I don't use this stuff THAT much, but I do find it quite interesting, and the drop 2 stuff is pretty handy for making arrangements and chord solos.

[bossa]

Hi guys. I tried it out some movements for Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm6 ( Cm6dim scale ), please let me know what do you think?

Cm6 = C Eb G A
Bdim = B D F Ab
dom = C7 Db7 E7 A7


We copuld use inversions of Bdim7 to link those chords, could be one simple alternative, right?)


Edim7 is a bIIdim7


What do you think about this progression's voice leading?
Is this the right to do it, based on method?
What would be more advanced ways to do it based on the method?


1) Fm6-Fdim7-G7-Edim7(bIIdim7)-A7(F#m7b5)-Cm6


2) C6(E borrowed from dominate related)-Ab7(Gb borrowed from tritone's minor)-Fm6-Fdim7-G7-Abdim7-F7-Cm6


3) Fm6 -Bdim7-Abm6-G7-Gdim7-A7-C6-Cm6


Does it sound better having more notes/voices changing/moving?

Moving Wave:

D7M Bbº Am7 -D7b9(original)


D6-Dbdim-Cm6-G6add9/B(Am7)-D6/B-Cdim7-(D7b9)

Thanks.

Thanks.

[PMB]

A fond memory is his correcting me on a mistake in a Bud Powell head and looking at me as if I was absolute pond life. A memory I treasure :-)

He also told me I am a good singer another time... So hey, cosmic balance....

Ha, he said the same to me. I had been at a group piano class that flowed into a vocal session. We worked on memorising a tune and realising it was getting late and I needed to be elsewhere, I tried to quietly leave before BH got individuals up to sing. He immediately got on my case, saying "Where do you think you're going? You've got a nice voice so you're getting up first!".

[matt.guitarteacher]

So, could be Chopin and Bach actually knew what they were doing.

BTW, i'd be grateful if someone would be so nice to post the link to that discussion btw Reg and Christian (could be I've already read it at the time, but can't rteally remember what it was about.)

It's not so much that Harris is PLAYING something different than Chopin, Bach or Reg. It's the way he organizes it/relates to it conceptually in a different way. He was basically saying that the music Bach wrote JUSTIFIES his 8 note scale. Saying that you have to jump through more theoretical hoops to make seven note scales justify it. That's if I'm understanding it correctly. Very possibly I'm not.

In the end, theory is only DESCRIPTIVE semantics anyway, not PRESCRIPTIVE rules. All those guys are basically referencing the same western harmony( in terms of actual music/sound/notes ), and probably could sit down and play together fine.

[PMB]

Bb13/A7b9 - Dm7 ---- Dm blues (D E F G Ab A B C D)

That's certainly an option but it's sometimes nice to defer that sound until the Dm7-G7 vamp and make more of the b6 (Bb).

I was playing Wave the other night with a pianist who hipped me to another Barry Harris-related option for that change. It's a D harmonic minor with an added note between the 4th and 5th steps of the scale. Unlike the conventional harmonic bebop minor scale (D E F G A Bb C C#), this one yields the bVI7 and V7 chords with each successive step:

D E F G [Ab] A Bb C# = D, F, Ab, Bb (Bb7) and E, G, A, C# (A7).

[ragman1]

Barry Harris-related option for that change. It's a D harmonic minor with an added note between the 4th and 5th steps of the scale.

You don't say :-)

Have you been round here a lot?

sorry, couldn't help it :-)

[Vladan]

It's not so much that Harris is PLAYING something different than Chopin, Bach or Reg. It's the way he organizes it/relates to it conceptually in a different way. He was basically saying that the music Bach wrote JUSTIFIES his 8 note scale. Saying that you have to jump through more theoretical hoops to make seven note scales justify it. That's if I'm understanding it correctly. Very possibly I'm not.

In the end, theory is only DESCRIPTIVE semantics anyway, not PRESCRIPTIVE rules. All those guys are basically referencing the same western harmony( in terms of actual music/sound/notes ), and probably could sit down and play together fine.

I did not speak about what Barry Harris plays. I was about what I hear in things I have played while trying some "movements" proposed in previous posts from this thread and/ or links proposed in previous posts from this thread.

As far as I could conclude, what Barry Harris teaches is not really a theory. It is a method of obtaining certain sounds. So, I don't say his method does not work, I say, It seams to me, sounds obtained by his method are not what I'm looking for, for what sounds right and good to me, may sound vanilla to you and ragman1, LAAAAMEEEE to Christianm77, unorganized to Reg, plain bad to Chopin and Monk ... and vice versa. At least they are not all the sounds I'd want to use all the time.
In JGB forum standardized terminology I could say: once completely internalized, when it's just another colour on the palette, one might be able to use these sounds convincingly, but that one is not me. There is certainly more than one way to connect Major, Minor and Diminished in a single scale, or a couple, and find the practical use for it. For what it's worth, I never have much luck in harmonizing synthetic/ derived/ composite ... scales. It is not what I perceive as "good" in music.

Now, I know about Barry Harris' method only 3rd hand and 4th and ... 104th, could be I'd totally dig it If I'd commit to study according to original lessons, but the way it is ...

[christianm77]

Sounds fair enough to me Vladan. I agree that BH approach is not REEAALLLY a theory, and part of the reason why I lose patience with theory is theory can be too... well... theoretical, leading to discussion in the abstract which I no longer find terribly interesting.

Some people are more academically minded, while I have reprogrammed myself to deal more with musical practicalities. Well, a bit.

Anyway, it's funny the people you get turning up to Barry's classes who don't seem to know what the guy is about, and his views on jazz post Kind of Blue.... Also many are confused as to the strictness, rigour and discipline, of those classes compared to modern jazz education (I know I was). Barry is not (initially) about teaching you to 'do you own thing' - he is teaching the bop tradition as he sees it.

Those who have been out the other end can find a great freedom in playing the bop language. The strength of Barry's approach is ultimately that it goes beyond mere ii-V-I licks of conventional bebop pedagogy and equips the player with a set of tools that, when internalised, allow complete freedom to improvise creatively within the framework of bop without ever resorting to licks. But, this is achieved very much through old school rote learning and application of strict rules.

Likewise, the harmony stuff lets the chordal player move beyond chords and towards playing harmonic movement.

It's not for everyone.

[destinytot]

That's certainly an option but it's sometimes nice to defer that sound until the Dm7-G7 vamp and make more of the b6 (Bb).

I was playing Wave the other night with a pianist who hipped me to another Barry Harris-related option for that change. It's a D harmonic minor with an added note between the 4th and 5th steps of the scale. Unlike the conventional harmonic bebop minor scale (D E F G A Bb C C#), this one yields the bVI7 and V7 chords with each successive step:

D E F G [Ab] A Bb C# = D, F, Ab, Bb (Bb7) and E, G, A, C# (A7).

Nice - thanks!

[grahambop]

Likewise, the harmony stuff lets the chordal player move beyond chords and towards playing harmonic movement.

It's not for everyone.

Worth pointing out that I see the BH harmonic system as an additional option or 'flavour' to mix in with the chords I already use, rather than a replacement. So I don't use it exclusively, but it does open up some possibilities I wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Also because it's basically just sixth / dim inversions it means there's not really that much to learn in terms of chord voicings before you can start using it.

Another point to note is that I sometimes 'tweak' some of the chords by changing a note to get the sound I want, this makes it more useful to me.

[christianm77]

Yeah I think I do much the same thing. I'm certainly not a Barry school player when it comes to comping - I like things like m(add9) chords too much!

[destinytot]

Nothing wrong with an eclectic pick 'n' mix approach - choosing the parameters within which to operate:

[fasstrack]

There you guys go AGAIN, over-thinking!!

PLAY OFF THE MELODY, fer Chrissakes!! That's all the info you need!!

BTW: Barry had a nice chart on Wave for the Jazz Cultural Theater big band, ca 1987. (I was in the band).

Audrey Blandings (now Chakere) sang the melody and played piano, Barry played sometimes also. I have cassettes of it somewhere. They also used to make up hilarious blues lyrics on the fly.

Another time I had left my long pants elsewhere and had the balls to show up for a Jaki Byard gig in tan terrycloth hot pants! (Don't ask...). A lady of color, Lucy said 'um, the women here find your dress code kind of offensive' Barry said 'you're goddamn lucky I let you play dressed like that!'

'Young and foolish---why do we have to be'....

Good times...

[SeanZ]

yeah I like it when a chord does a lot of jobs!

that fingering can also be B7#9#5 & Am7b5, as well as G Aeolian & D Phrygian from key of Bb (makes sense since Cm 6/9 is 2 in Bb). Dan Haerle calls it a 'Magic Voicing'. :-) Here's his link: http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf

[bossa]

Very cool video, demonstrating the Barry Harris method with some real applications.

[bossa]

Jazzschool is partly Alan isn't it?

He teaches there, the guitar part, very cool but brief videos.