Conceptual problems created by using seventh chords as a basic unit of jazz harmony

[christianm77]

I just wanted to share a quick rant with you about conceptual difficulties for beginners the current Berklee style practice of using seventh chords as the basis of jazz harmony. There are two main areas:

1) Blues
2) Minor harmony

Older pedagogy (such as it was) generally used either straight minors and majors or minor and major sixth chords. Barry Harris continues this tradition, and players looking to learn historic styles such as swing or early jazz are also pointed in this direction.

However, there is a strong advantage in doing this for all jazz students, that I would like to point out.

1) Blues

It used to really confuse me that some variants of the blues start with 7th chords and others start with maj7th chords (such as Blues for Alice.) In terms of my own playing in the older tradition (swing and bop) I have come to favour the following - parenthesised additions give a more bebop flavour:

F6 F7 | Bb6 Bo7 | F6 | (Cm7) F7 |
Bb6 | Bo7 | F6 | (Am7b5) D7(b9) |
Gm7 | C7 | F6 D7 | Gm7 C7 |

Now the advantage of using sixth chords is that they the seventh of the chord is undefined. We are free to make it a major or flat 7th.

Examination of transcriptions shows that swing and bop era improvisors frequently played maj7s and b7s interchangeably over major chords. Starting from the standpoint of a major 7th chord obscures that freedom, it seems to me.

Furthermore it is common for musicians of this era to play 6th sounds on dominant chords - the bridges of Anthropology and Moose the Mooche offer examples.

2) Minor chords.

By defining the tonic minor sound as minor 7th by default we run into a couple of problems. First is that it doesn't sound right a lot of the time. Straight Minor or where appropriate Minor 6th are often a better choice.

The other problem is that very frequently in bebop and swing era lines both the natural and flat 7ths are used in the same line. An obvious example is the classic 'Blue Skies' style line cliche 1-7-b7-6. This also gets expressed all the time as a line.

Furthermore indiscriminate use of m7's can cause clashes with the melody. For example, using a Bbm7 in Days of Wine and Roses. It's better IMO to think Bbm + melody note (A), which in this case gives you Bbm(maj7)

The minor seventh is then reserved for predominant (II) chords and passing chords, or where the style favours this sound - for example Blue Note era jazz. It's easier to have the flexibility to add a b7 to a minor chord rather than having one built in as default.

Suggested alternative approach for beginners

Use major and minor triads as the basic sounds in jazz harmony. Allow students to add notes to the chords melodically, and discuss the fact the V7 must have a b7, while the I and IV chords are more flexible.

[citizenk74]

Yes. Thank you.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Suggested alternative approach for beginners

Use major and minor triads as the basic sounds in jazz harmony. Allow students to add notes to the chords melodically, and discuss the fact the V7 must have a b7, while the I and IV chords are more flexible.

Always enjoy reading your posts, and have especially enjoyed your Harris take on many things. I think probably an important aspect is the "for beginners" part. Anything which helps.

At a certain point, later though, I'd imagine you would actually WANT the kind of harmonic specificity to suit your above leadline, as opposed to a general framework to fit all of it. Of course , in the end you're just going to be using different ways of describing the same sorts of things. So, maybe beginning... with the beginning in mind has real potential benefit.

Anyway, an initial thought: 5ths and 7ths enclosing the third of the next chord seems to be a pretty foundational part of jazz, the way it's studied, at least a certain point. Mostly it's talked about from melodics standpoint though. So, maybe it's a non-issue. Of course , on guitar, those arpeggio pitches are maybe even easier to "see" than thinking purely melodically anyway. I haven't transcribed anything like the amount of material you have though. So, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

One last thought on the Harris stuff and 6th chords as an organizer: I've done a lot of chord melody type stuff the last year or so with non- jazz styles and music, mostly based around triads, and I've noticed that in simple melodies, from folksongs or popular music, it actually makes a lot of sense to kind of view the 6th of major or minor chords as a chord tone. They don't sound like tensions, they help organizer 7ths as "upper neighbors", and they alsohelp make the connection to relative minor etc.

Of course, even kind of considering that, I tend to think that points even more to seventh chords maybe being a primary distinctive of jazz , at least what it's become in more modern times.

Thanks for posting, Christian.

[christianm77]

Always enjoy reading your posts, and have especially enjoyed your Harris take on many things. I think probably an important aspect is the "for beginners" part. Anything which helps.

At a certain point, later though, I'd imagine you would actually WANT the kind of harmonic specificity to suit your above leadline, as opposed to a general framework to fit all of it. Of course , in the end you're just going to be using different ways of describing the same sorts of things. So, maybe beginning... with the beginning in mind has real potential benefit.

Dunno. Maybe.

I'm exactly sure what harmonic specificity means TBH.

In terms of developing single note lines, you do have stacked tertial structures. For a long period in the history of jazz probably up to the 1960s, these were primarily melodic devices.

When comping I'm rarely thinking of seventh chords in any conventional sense. I have grips and I have voice leading and movement.

TBH seventh chords don't even sound that great for jazz TBH. Some voicings are nice. Some less so. If your harmony is added note/coluristic as opposed to common practice classical or BH style, why not push the boat out? Have any combination of major key notes (excepting the 4th) that you like on major chords, for instance.

There are maybe two or three major seventh voicings I actually like - mostly the ones with the clashes or the 7th in the top voice. The others I sort of instinctively avoid.

Certainly quite often you are better off using an add9, a triad, a 9th chord, something else. It amuses me on the Moreno masterclass vid where he dismisses the standard drop 2 minor seventh chord grip as 'an R&B chord.' But surely jazz is all about mastering the 7th chords haha...

Anyway, Ellington was doing all kinds of crazy stuff long before the boppers came along.

Anyway, an initial thought: 5ths and 7ths enclosing the third of the next chord seems to be a pretty foundational part of jazz, the way it's studied, at least a certain point. Mostly it's talked about from melodics standpoint though. So, maybe it's a non-issue. Of course , on guitar, those arpeggio pitches are maybe even easier to "see" than thinking purely melodically anyway. I haven't transcribed anything like the amount of material you have though. So, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

Well, there's a hell of a lot of triads in bebop. 1 3 5 to death.

5 b7--> 3 in the next chord. Sure. Classical harmony. Secondary dominant.

YOu might also raise the b3 to 3 and get into the 1 of the next chord while you are at it.

Also how walking bass lines work. In Handel and Paul Chambers.

One last thought on the Harris stuff and 6th chords as an organizer: I've done a lot of chord melody type stuff the last year or so with non- jazz styles and music, mostly based around triads, and I've noticed that in simple melodies, from folksongs or popular music, it actually makes a lot of sense to kind of view the 6th of major or minor chords as a chord tone. They don't sound like tensions, they help organizer 7ths as "upper neighbors", and they alsohelp make the connection to relative minor etc.

Definitely a pentatonic influence in major key tunes - do you have any minor key examples? Would be very interested.

In fact, I'm moving away from Harris's harmonic theory. It's great for a certain sound of harmony, quite a historic one, but it's not in fact a direction I'm interested in (Pasquale Grasso has that covered lol). In fact, I think triads and common practice harmony are a great starting point. You can add notes from there. I love Baroque harmony and Jobim.

Of course, even kind of considering that, I tend to think that points even more to seventh chords maybe being a primary distinctive of jazz , at least what it's become in more modern times.

Well I think 7th chords are rather old hat don't you? Given all the stuff kicking off with intervallic cluster harmony and so on.

I see know reason to involve seventh chord theory in my teaching of chord voicings to be honest. As I say stacked tertial structures are important for improvisation.

Anyway TL;DR, play seventh chords if you think they sound good. But I dispute any fundamental importance of the maj7 or m7 chords to harmony. Dominant 7ths... Sure.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Dunno. Maybe.

I'm exactly sure what harmonic specificity means TBH.

I guess I'm talking about the issues with reconciling b7 and nat 7ths over a single minor chord.

2) Minor chords.

By defining the tonic minor sound as minor 7th by default we run into a couple of problems. First is that it doesn't sound right a lot of the time. Straight Minor or where appropriate Minor 6th are often a better choice.

The fact that organization around the 7th basically demands that you treat each chord as its own thing isn't necessarily a "problem" to be solved IMO. I'd think that's the good stuff. Ambiguity or generalization are always options. But accenting the differences is a big part of what I've been working on trying to do. I'm not the player you are. So, I'll always defer to those who actually play . Anyway, I appreciate your take.

[MarkRhodes]

Great "rant", Christian. I remember when I first learned to play a major 6 chord, I fell in love with that sound. To me, that more than any other chord says to me not only 'swing' but also boogie-woogie and jump blues. Love all those things. Riffy, swinging, and fun.

I saw a chart for "All of Me" the other day with the I chord as C M7. I played it as a C6 anyway.

To me, it is simple (and perhaps simple-minded): if the 7th--major or minor--is a leading tone, then you want the I (one) chord NOT to have it because you want a sound you can, well, sit on it for awhile. (Exception being in old charts where a chord is given as major for, say, three bars and the 7th comes maximizing tension before a chord change.)

[christianm77]

I guess I'm talking about the issues with reconciling b7 and nat 7ths over a single minor chord. The fact that organization around the 7th basically demands that you treat each chord as its own thing isn't necessarily a "problem" to be solved IMO. I'd think that's the good stuff. Ambiguity or generalization are always options. But accenting the differences is a big part of what I've been working on trying to do. I'm not the player you are. So, I'll always defer to those who actually play . Anyway, I appreciate your take.

Sure. But the min7 thing confused me for years.

For beginners, I think it's good just to say:

Major, Minor, Dominant, Diminished

And go from there.

[MarkRhodes]

Sure. But the min7 thing confused me for years.

For beginners, I think it's good just to say:

Major, Minor, Dominant, Diminished

And go from there.

Or even, as Joe Pass did, just major, minor, and dominant. (His view was that, at any given moment, a diminished or augmented chord was functioning as a major, minor, or dominant chord / sound. Usually dominant but not always.)

[christianm77]

Or even, as Joe Pass did, just major, minor, and dominant. (His view was that, at any given moment, a diminished or augmented chord was functioning as a major, minor, or dominant chord / sound. Usually dominant but not always.)

True. I change my mind about this quite a bit haha....

[ragman1]

the advantage of using sixth chords is that they the seventh of the chord is undefined. We are free to make it a major or flat 7th

.

Isn't that why most jazz versions of the blues use 13 chords?

2) Minor chords.

By defining the tonic minor sound as minor 7th by default we run into a couple of problems. First is that it doesn't sound right a lot of the time. Straight Minor or where appropriate Minor 6th are often a better choice.

I think you have a point there but it's never bothered me personally. It doesn't seem to bother the famous players either as far as I can make out. Mind you, m6s aren't the same as m7s. They sound quite different, and especially to a beginner.

Why not simply use straight minors where you want them in your own arrangements?

Suggested alternative approach for beginners

Use major and minor triads as the basic sounds in jazz harmony. Allow students to add notes to the chords melodically, and discuss the fact the V7 must have a b7, while the I and IV chords are more flexible.

Well, I'm not sure the beginner would get attuned quickly enough to the sound of extended (beyond straight triad) harmony, and they need to do that. Also, from experience, a nice straight triad sound doesn't inspire jazz-sounding soloing. Put an extra sound in and suddenly you're playing it differently, can't help it.

[ragman1]

When I was teaching, not that I particularly liked it, I decided early on that I didn't want to do beginners. I only took intermediate players who wanted to know more. I knew I couldn't go back far enough, after years of playing, to empathise with those who had little familiarity with the music and the instrument. I'd have found it far too frustrating.

Christian, if you don't mind my saying so, I actually think you have something of the same problem. Quite a few of your vids start by referring to beginners and then, in the next minute, you're off onto far more complex and intricate detail that a beginner wouldn't understand. I think we talked about that before, as I recall.

[christianm77]

When I was teaching, not that I particularly liked it, I decided early on that I didn't want to do beginners. I only took intermediate players who wanted to know more. I knew I couldn't go back far enough, after years of playing, to empathise with those who had little familiarity with the music and the instrument. I'd have found it far too frustrating.

Christian, if you don't mind my saying so, I actually think you have something of the same problem. Quite a few of your vids start by referring to beginners and then, in the next minute, you're off onto far more complex and intricate detail that a beginner could understand. I think we talked about that before, as I recall.

The post is not a lesson, I'm talking about how to teach beginners to other musicians with some experience and knowledge.

I don't expect beginners to get what I am on about here.

[christianm77]

.

Isn't that why most jazz versions of the blues use 13 chords?

Do they? What versions?

I don't tend to use 13th chords too much in comping - personal taste I guess, and I'd like to leave the soloist a little space to decide what to do with the 9th and 13th, so they can flat them etc if they want.

I do often outline 13th chords in my soloing - influence of Wes and later bop players I guess.

I think you have a point there but it's never bothered me personally. It doesn't seem to bother the famous players either as far as I can make out. Mind you, m6s aren't the same as m7s. They sound quite different, and especially to a beginner.

Why not simply use straight minors where you want them in your own arrangements?

I think the key point is understanding these are different sounds. Even now I have a tendency to play m7 chords on tonic minors, and they can sound crap in the wrong context. The minor triad always sounds good though.

m6's can also sound quite bad sometimes. Gypsy Jazz players have a tendency to use them indiscriminately though haha.

Well, I'm not sure the beginner would get attuned quickly enough to the sound of extended (beyond straight triad) harmony, and they need to do that.

Also, from experience, a nice straight triad sound doesn't inspire jazz-sounding soloing. Put an extra sound in and suddenly you're playing it differently, can't help it.

You should watch Jordan's recent video if you think this is the case. I'll try and find a link.

I'll do a video on what I think of as the Upper Structure bebop myth soon. Parker's lines are largely constructed out of triads, seventh & sixth chords, diatonic scales, neighbour tones, line cliches and blues scale licks. It's his rhythm and phrasing that are innovative.

Later players adopted the US thing a bit more.

Extended harmony can be built on the basis of functional harmony.

There are no 'jazz notes' really. So much is based on phrasing and rhythm. The idea you can get a jazz sound from pitch choice is incredibly flawed from all sorts of perspectives. I'm not saying you can use interesting harmonies in jazz - but the DNA of jazz, the thing that makes melodic lines sound like jazz is independent from the harmonic content.

If you can't make triadic soloing sound like jazz, it's something valuable to work on.

[ragman1]

The post is not a lesson, I'm talking about how to teach beginners to other musicians with some experience and knowledge.

I don't expect beginners to get what I am on about here.

Same difference, I would have thought!

[ragman1]

Do they? What versions?

I thought that was pretty well known. The jazz version of, say, G7 -C7 - G7 is G13 - C9 - G13 etc. But you see the point about including the 13, sort of makes it less 7, more major.

If you can't make triadic soloing sound like jazz, it's something valuable to work on.

What do you mean by triadic soloing? Triad pairs? Surely not just triad arpeggios or something.

[christianm77]

I thought that was pretty well known. The jazz version of, say, G7 -C7 - G7 is G13 - C9 - G13 etc. But you see the point about including the 13, sort of makes it less 7, more major.

Maybe it is well known. I don't really know what you mean by 'jazz version'. Could you be more specific?

Who, what recordings, melody or chord voicings etc

What do you mean by triadic soloing? Triad pairs? Surely not just triad arpeggios or something.

Just triad arpeggios with some neighbour tones.

[christianm77]

Same difference, I would have thought!

Obviously, no. Think about it.

For example, few students would be interested in hearing the contents of my Diploma in Music Education. It does, however, help me organise lessons and teach.

In the same way, a student does not need to know about the altered scale to be taught how to use tritone subs. In fact you don't even have to use the word tritone. For instance:

'Instead of playing G7 C, try Db C.'

Give a few more examples, see if they can work out the pattern, etc.

Background knowledge shouldn't overwhelm clarity.

Here I am talking about here is background knowledge and how to organise it to a entry level student's best advantage.

[Vladan]

...
I'll do a video on what I think of as the Upper Structure bebop myth soon. Parker's lines are largely constructed out of triads, seventh & sixth chords, diatonic scales, neighbour tones, line cliches and blues scale licks. It's his rhythm and phrasing that are innovative.

I'd say that's hardly a "secret".

I also think you might have some success with it, people tend to fall for "revelations" and "cracked codes", especially if presented in wordily manner.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[christianm77]

Jordan starts with the sort of thing I am talking about.

[grahambop]

I also think you might have some success with it, people tend to fall for "revelations" and "cracked codes", especially if presented in wordily manner.

If you can weave into it some stuff about dodgy priests and the Knights Templar, you'll be sorted.

[christianm77]

I'd say that's hardly a "secret".

I also think you might have some success with it, people tend to fall for "revelations" and "cracked codes", especially if presented in wordily manner.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

It's the opposite of that. There are no revelations or cracked codes. There's absolutely no easy way to make your playing sound like jazz. But at least you can deflect focus from being too much on note choice.

Well you might understand this, but there are plenty of people who are under the impression that in order to play jazz you need to play 'jazz notes.'

There is a very prevalent factoid regarding the use of upper extensions in bebop. I was taught it.

It is wrong.

[MarkRhodes]

I'll do a video on what I think of as the Upper Structure bebop myth soon. Parker's lines are largely constructed out of triads, seventh & sixth chords, diatonic scales, neighbour tones, line cliches and blues scale licks. It's his rhythm and phrasing that are innovative.

I'm looking forward to this.

[ragman1]

I don't really know what you mean by 'jazz version'.

Eh? Of course you do! Do you play a three chord trick blues?

Just triad arpeggios with some neighbour tones.

I used to do whole solos like that. I gave it up because it sounded too basic, no lines in it. Clever, but no soul.

[bako]

There are melodies/improvisations that define themselves to embrace better either a 6th or 7th color to the triad.
Both exist as a viable I chord sound. Some minor examples:

Footprints defines a dorian sound (b7 b7 b7 b7 8 6 b7 6 5 4 2 1)

Invitation brings greater focus to m6/9 but also includes b7 (2 b3 9 6 --- 5 b7 6 5 1 2)

Nica's Dream 1st phrase defines Bbmadd9 (Bbm 5 9 8 5 b3 5 Abm 6)
2nd phrase (Bbm 5 9 b3 7 9 ....) BbmMa9

When a melody emphasizes only the triad, we define the what else notes.

A chart is not a prison sentence, what is being played is the true guide.
We respond to the actual sounds as best as we can, throwing our own ideas into the mix.

[Reg]

Nothing wrong with that approach... for beginners. Maybe just start with root motion etc. Very simple and any functional type of movement can fit into very simple organization. Not too many levels to hear or understand.

I play many gigs where I'm not sure the musicians really hear or understand much else. And really have difficulty even organizing that very basic collection of harmonic material. More from memorized performance etc... for understandings.

I don't teach beginners... but if they're really interested in performing jazz or pop tunes in a jazz style.
Jazz performance skills.... improvisation, (using a reference, creating relationships and developing those relationships), and spatial skills using Form(s) organizationally might be just as important for any conceptual understanding of the music.