Conceptual problems created by using seventh chords as a basic unit of jazz harmony

[mr. beaumont]

A chart is not a prison sentence, what is being played is the true guide.
We respond to the actual sounds as best as we can, throwing our own ideas into the mix.

Kinda feel like this should be on the front page of the forum, in bold, like, forever.

[matt.guitarteacher]

'Instead of playing G7 C, try Db C.'

Give a few more examples, see if they can work out the pattern, etc.

Background knowledge shouldn't overwhelm clarity.

I'm not a complete beginner I guess, but I'm very interested in limiting exercises. What kind of things do you do for beginner exercises with triads? Triad plus lower neighbor on a specific chord tone etc.? 1 degree at a time? Interested in your broader perspective in progressing from the beginning. Thanks.

[christianm77]

Nothing wrong with that approach... for beginners. Maybe just start with root motion etc. Very simple and any functional type of movement can fit into very simple organization. Not too many levels to hear or understand.

I play many gigs where I'm not sure the musicians really hear or understand much else. And really have difficulty even organizing that very basic collection of harmonic material. More from memorized performance etc... for understandings.

I don't teach beginners... but if they're really interested in performing jazz or pop tunes in a jazz style.
Jazz performance skills.... improvisation, (using a reference, creating relationships and developing those relationships), and spatial skills using Form(s) organizationally might be just as important for any conceptual understanding of the music.

Sure. I think we all get around to the same info sooner or later (well most of the core stuff.) I'm just trying to avoid teaching stuff that confused me.

[Vladan]

It's the opposite of that. There are no revelations or cracked codes. There's absolutely no easy way to make your playing sound like jazz. But at least you can deflect focus from being too much on note choice.

Well you might understand this, but there are plenty of people who are under the impression that in order to play jazz you need to play 'jazz notes.'

There is a very prevalent factoid regarding the use of upper extensions in bebop. I was taught it.

It is wrong.

Have no idea why you wrote above in response to my post?!

Only related to what I said is notion about ".. uper extensions ...", all the rest is from somewhere out there.

Just to clarify, when you (plural) speak about beginners, you don't mean beginner in music and guitar, but rather beginner in Jazz? Right?
I mean, worthy beginner in music and guitar will have 6s vs 7s as well as 6 &7,and 9s and 4s well in use after learning couple of chords and couple of songs and some blues on top. Only Jazzers need to be taught about that stuff, but rather as explanation why what they already play sounds correct and to dtandardize organization for communication purpose. Rigjt?

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[goldenwave77]

Don't Maj6 chords sound more resolved?!

I'm looking at a lead sheet for Body and Soul and the 1st 8 bars are given as Ebm7 Bb7b9; Ebm9 Ab 13; Db Maj7 Gb 7; Fm7 E dim; Eb m7/Db; Cm7b5 F7#5#9; Bb m7 Eb7 Eb m7 Ab7; Db 6 Bb 7;

The Db Maj 7 in bar 3 is in the middle of a phrase. If you play Db Maj 6, it just like stops it dead, at least to my ear.

Conversely the Db Maj 6 in bar 8, is the end of the phrase, and it sounds conclusive.

The 7th in the Maj 7 chord is almost like a springboard into the next chord or phrase...I think you can lengthen your lead lines with Maj 7 chords, more easily.

[christianm77]

Eh? Of course you do! Do you play a three chord trick blues?

Of course I don't. But I don't play 13th chords either as a basic jazz sound. TBH I don't really think that way... I think of the top line melody and comp according to that, or the voice leading. Introduce movement and so on.

Depends on style too - who's soloing, what the type of jazz is, what the soloist is doing. Usually three or four note chords...

That's not how I'd teach it of course, cos that's where I am after 25 years. But I'd probably start with 6th and 7th chords. You could call a 6th a 13th of course, but my basic voicings would tend to have one or the other. I don't hear the first chord in 12 bar as dominant really, it's more neutral than that - can be made dominant or major 7 by the soloist. Millions may differ.

That said, the three chord version is common in swing era versions of the tune.... C jam blues etc. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

I used to do whole solos like that. I gave it up because it sounded too basic, no lines in it. Clever, but no soul.

I see it as the opposite of clever, interestingly. I see harmony stuff as 'clever'.

Having such obvious notes means you are forced to come up with interesting rhythmic things, but at the same time having consonant notes mean that you have a lot of rhythmic freedom in how you play them.

For me a great example of a composition that is very simple notes wise but highly advanced rhythmically is Sonny Rollin's Oleo.

[christianm77]

Have no idea why you wrote above in response to my post?!

Only related to what I said is notion about ".. uper extensions ...", all the rest , is from somewhere out there.

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Nah you've lost me too. Crossed wires probably.

[christianm77]

Don't Maj6 chords sound more resolved?!

I'm looking at a lead sheet for Body and Soul and the 1st 8 bars are given as Ebm7 Bb7b9; Ebm9 Ab 13; Db Maj7 Gb 7; Fm7 E dim; Eb m7/Db; Cm7b5 F7#5#9; Bb m7 Eb7 Eb m7 Ab7; Db 6 Bb 7;

The Db Maj 7 in bar 3 is in the middle of a phrase. If you play Db Maj 6, it just like stops it dead, at least to my ear.

Conversely the Db Maj 6 in bar 8, is the end of the phrase, and it sounds conclusive.

The 7th in the Maj 7 chord is almost like a springboard into the next chord or phrase...I think you can lengthen your lead lines with Maj 7 chords, more easily.

Yes... This in fact comes AFAIK from classical harmony.

7-6 resolution. Classic Baroque formula but you see it swing era stuff. Fats Waller for instance (a student of Bach's music remember), always makes me think 'Tea for Two.' Freddie Green rhythm parts.

Eventually, the bebop chromatic ii-V.

I'm starting to piece together a sort of a timeline for jazz harmony. I might post up my findings at some point and see if other interested parties can correct misconceptions and fill in the gaps.

However in general I would describe the advancement of jazz harmony as a growing unity between the basically quite free use of scale tones (7ths etc) in melody lines and the simpler chords used in accompaniment.

Basically, Louis could play an E on an F chord in 1928 and no one would mind, but if the banjo or guitar did that it would sound wrong. Why?

Fast forward to today and now we have chord scale theory which looks to strike a unity between improvised lines and chords.

[christianm77]

Not sure how cogent this is... See Jordan's vid above

[Vladan]

Basically, Louis could play an E on an F chord in 1928 and no one would mind, but if the banjo or guitar did that it would sound wrong. Why?

Because trumpets (and saxophones) are loud and unpleasant, piercing sounding things. To the rest of the band they don't have to play music, but can rely on "sound on sound" method.


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[Vladan]

Nah you've lost me too. Crossed wires probably.

I was speaking on the lines of
... upper structure ... MYTH ... Bird ... what he really played ...


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[jtr]

Having such obvious notes means you are forced to come up with interesting rhythmic things, but at the same time having consonant notes mean that you have a lot of rhythmic freedom in how you play them.

I'm somewhat of a beginner, and I recently transcribed Clifford Brown's solo on Delilah. I was startled to see how much he stuck with triad notes during that solo; I don't think he ever uses the b7 on the Im chord. He generally sticks with the minor triad plus one extra color note; for parts of the solo he uses a lot of b5's, and for other sections he uses a lot of maj6's. Besides that it's mostly just passing notes as needed to fill out his lines. It really is all about the rhythm and phrasing, rather than any fancy harmony.

[ragman1]

Don't Maj6 chords sound more resolved?!


Conversely the Db Maj 6 in bar 8, is the end of the phrase, and it sounds conclusive.

Absolutely. Unless it's the sound one actually wants - and it suits some tunes - a M7 at the end can sound floaty whereas the 6 sounds stable. 69s are nice too :-)

[christianm77]

Not sure how cogent this is... See Jordan's vid above

BTW I have to be careful not to get sucked into a silly strawman caricature of my argument.

Just to be clear.

I'm not saying 'it's all triads' (although practicing triads is a great idea.) Well duh, it's obviously not. It never was even in the early days.

What I'm saying is:

Using major/minor triads or major/minor 6th chords makes in some ways more sense as a fundamental basis for understanding lines and chords than the four note seventh chords I learned when getting started, because:

- So much swing and bop language is based on a triad structures and triads + a 6th.
- The 7ths on major and minor chords can also either flattened or natural.
- They always sound good
- Swing, Trad, Bossa and Pat Metheny tunes often use triads
- Notes can be added to triads according to taste without worrying about theory so much including open strings etc.
- Stacking thirds is hard to visualise on the fretboard.
- As Jordan indicates, they are very handy for accessing US sounds and highly guitaristic.
- Other reasons that I will think of soon :-)

I'm not advocating never learning the 7th chords. But 7th chords can also be introduced as triad + melody (perhaps moving into triad + bass later on)

[christianm77]

I'm somewhat of a beginner, and I recently transcribed Clifford Brown's solo on Delilah. I was startled to see how much he stuck with triad notes during that solo; I don't think he ever uses the b7 on the Im chord. He generally sticks with the minor triad plus one extra color note; for parts of the solo he uses a lot of b5's, and for other sections he uses a lot of maj6's. Besides that it's mostly just passing notes as needed to fill out his lines. It really is all about the rhythm and phrasing, rather than any fancy harmony.

b7 on Im is a later sound to my ears.

6 on Im is common in Charlie Christian's music. Not so much in Bird.

[henryrobinett]

Yes. I believe the basic unit is the triad. Jazz explores it's basic unit as the 7th. But you must master the sound and application of the triad - first preferably. I've seen great jazz players who cannot improvise on triads. One of the things that made Jarrett and Metheny so interesting. So much of their music, even Ornette's, was triads. 7ths didn't work. So it seems to have made better sense to start from the common approach and understand how those 3rds resolve where the 7th is just an enclosure or passing tone. It opens up the ears to basic harmony.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes. I believe the basic unit is the triad. Jazz explores it's basic unit as the 7th. But you must master the sound and application of the triad - first preferably. I've seen great jazz players who cannot improvise on triads. One of the things that made Jarrett and Metheny so interesting. So much of their music, even Ornette's, was triads. 7ths didn't work. So it seems to have made better sense to start from the common approach and understand how those 3rds resolve where the 7th is just an enclosure or passing tone. It opens up the ears to basic harmony.

I kind of wish I could go back. To me, making musical statements with triads is much more difficult.

[christianm77]

Because trumpets (and saxophones) are loud and unpleasant, piercing sounding things. To the rest of the band they don't have to play music, but can rely on "sound on sound" method.


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Wow Louis burned. Sorry mate, you make an unpleasant piercing racket ;-)

OK, it's not just trumpets. A pianist playing in a stride style would mostly play 10ths in the left hand. The melody in the right hand might well contain other notes. For example, the first few bars of After You've Gone is (in G) a held B against Cmajor and Cminor. So we would say Cmaj7 and Cm(maj7) from the point of view of modern chord charts.

But a stride pianist AFAIK would not play a B in a C chord except as a RH melody note, and in this case they wouldn't double it.

Bud powell's style was an evolution of this. In terms of harmony, his LH wasn't much different. Tenths, thirds, dom7ths, 6th chords etc.

Right hand - all the bop you can eat including major 7ths etc.

LH/RH - two different worlds. And in the 60s these two worlds got joined up. Pianists started to play with the hands more integrated. And harmonically it all got mixed up too.

Now people see these things as unified and invert them however they want.

To me, it's revealing that Barry Harris teaches Harmony and Improvisation separately. That's the old tradition.

[pingu]

I really liked your OP Christian
I think you stated your idea really well

And I agree with you ....
To me (at the moment) the sound of western music is made with Triads ...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Basically, Louis could play an E on an F chord in 1928 and no one would mind, but if the banjo or guitar did that it would sound wrong. Why?

Fast forward to today and now we have chord scale theory which looks to strike a unity between improvised lines and chords.

I'm pretty interested in the evolution of things as well. I would have assumed that modern harmony evolved out of what was previously purely melodic - ornamentation of more basic harmony.

I mean, if you take melodic devices to the compositional level with a band, and you're writing out parts where you have to make melody jive with harmony.... Kind of continuing the work of Ellington and others who initially developed common practice in jazz harmony....

I'm cool with the notion of things evolving, but many times I feel like these conversations take on a quality of a broad notion that jazz was hijacked/kidnapped, against its will, by the Berkelee illuminati. Players/teachers aren't really playing the music they should or would, if they knew better....

It's pretty natural to have pendulum swings and for succeeding generations Tabaq previous etc., but I feel funny about questioning the motives or even understandings of previous generations. I wouldn't initially assume, for example, that people weren't doing exactly what I thought was cool or wanted to hear back in the 70s.

I'm cool with the idea of alternate choices. I just slightly bristle at defensive overtones to "the conversation" though (not this one). At the highest levels, all schools of thought result in players being able to play together. Much of it is semantics . 6ths are inversions of ths etc. etc.

Sorry for the latter screed. Not directed at Christian or anyone specific. Please disregard if you like . :-)

Christian, thanks for the video. Will check out later.

[R Neil]

I really liked your OP Christian
I think you stated your idea really well

And I agree with you ....
To me (at the moment) the sound of western music is made with Triads ...

Perhaps a fair description of jazz would be based on the basis of the interaction of triads and tension?

Even in modern opera there are quartal chord structures and vocal lines, mixed with all variants of 6th, 7th, and "denser" chords.

The same happens in newer classical instrumental music.

That doesn't mean it sounds at all like jazz. So it isn't simply the types of chords used, is it?

To me there's a very different "feel" to the use (stacking, combinations. whatever) of triads and of tension within both the harmony and solo lines within jazz performers.

The notes are technically very similar. The practical use of them is very different.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[Jonzo]

There are a lot of ways to organize your thinking. You can use 12 tone or CST, and learn when not to use certain notes, or triads and learn what notes you can add. Using small note collections as a foundation for my ear to build on works best for me.

[ragman1]

Sounds to me we should all start with folk music :-)

[christianm77]

I'm cool with the notion of things evolving, but many times I feel like these conversations take on a quality of a broad notion that jazz was hijacked/kidnapped, against its will, by the Berkelee illuminati. Players/teachers aren't really playing the music they should or would, if they knew better....

Not being a Berklee graduate myself I can't say for sure, but it seems everyone who has graduated from music college finds a way of applying some of the huge heap of information to develop their own voice.

After all, Pat Metheny and Lage Lund, for example, who are big triad guys were at Berklee. Pat taught there of course.

That said I know some musicians who regard what they were taught at jazz college as big pile of steaming... nonsense. *shrugs* There are good teachers out there, and not everyone teaches the same stuff.

[christianm77]

There are a lot of ways to organize your thinking. You can use 12 tone or CST, and learn when not to use certain notes, or triads and learn what notes you can add. Using small note collections as a foundation for my ear to build on works best for me.

Triads are pretty basic sound. Easy to hear.

12 note tone rows... Not so much.