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Originally Posted by bako
Kinda feel like this should be on the front page of the forum, in bold, like, forever.
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01-20-2017 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Only related to what I said is notion about ".. uper extensions ...", all the rest is from somewhere out there.
Just to clarify, when you (plural) speak about beginners, you don't mean beginner in music and guitar, but rather beginner in Jazz? Right?
I mean, worthy beginner in music and guitar will have 6s vs 7s as well as 6 &7,and 9s and 4s well in use after learning couple of chords and couple of songs and some blues on top. Only Jazzers need to be taught about that stuff, but rather as explanation why what they already play sounds correct and to dtandardize organization for communication purpose. Rigjt?
VladanMovies BlogSpotLast edited by Vladan; 01-20-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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Don't Maj6 chords sound more resolved?!
I'm looking at a lead sheet for Body and Soul and the 1st 8 bars are given as Ebm7 Bb7b9; Ebm9 Ab 13; Db Maj7 Gb 7; Fm7 E dim; Eb m7/Db; Cm7b5 F7#5#9; Bb m7 Eb7 Eb m7 Ab7; Db 6 Bb 7;
The Db Maj 7 in bar 3 is in the middle of a phrase. If you play Db Maj 6, it just like stops it dead, at least to my ear.
Conversely the Db Maj 6 in bar 8, is the end of the phrase, and it sounds conclusive.
The 7th in the Maj 7 chord is almost like a springboard into the next chord or phrase...I think you can lengthen your lead lines with Maj 7 chords, more easily.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Depends on style too - who's soloing, what the type of jazz is, what the soloist is doing. Usually three or four note chords...
That's not how I'd teach it of course, cos that's where I am after 25 years. But I'd probably start with 6th and 7th chords. You could call a 6th a 13th of course, but my basic voicings would tend to have one or the other. I don't hear the first chord in 12 bar as dominant really, it's more neutral than that - can be made dominant or major 7 by the soloist. Millions may differ.
That said, the three chord version is common in swing era versions of the tune.... C jam blues etc. Sometimes it's the right thing to do.
I used to do whole solos like that. I gave it up because it sounded too basic, no lines in it. Clever, but no soul.
Having such obvious notes means you are forced to come up with interesting rhythmic things, but at the same time having consonant notes mean that you have a lot of rhythmic freedom in how you play them.
For me a great example of a composition that is very simple notes wise but highly advanced rhythmically is Sonny Rollin's Oleo.
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Originally Posted by Vladan
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
7-6 resolution. Classic Baroque formula but you see it swing era stuff. Fats Waller for instance (a student of Bach's music remember), always makes me think 'Tea for Two.' Freddie Green rhythm parts.
Eventually, the bebop chromatic ii-V.
I'm starting to piece together a sort of a timeline for jazz harmony. I might post up my findings at some point and see if other interested parties can correct misconceptions and fill in the gaps.
However in general I would describe the advancement of jazz harmony as a growing unity between the basically quite free use of scale tones (7ths etc) in melody lines and the simpler chords used in accompaniment.
Basically, Louis could play an E on an F chord in 1928 and no one would mind, but if the banjo or guitar did that it would sound wrong. Why?
Fast forward to today and now we have chord scale theory which looks to strike a unity between improvised lines and chords.
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Not sure how cogent this is... See Jordan's vid above
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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Originally Posted by christianm77
... upper structure ... MYTH ... Bird ... what he really played ...
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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Not sure how cogent this is... See Jordan's vid above
BTW I have to be careful not to get sucked into a silly strawman caricature of my argument.
Just to be clear.
I'm not saying 'it's all triads' (although practicing triads is a great idea.) Well duh, it's obviously not. It never was even in the early days.
What I'm saying is:
Using major/minor triads or major/minor 6th chords makes in some ways more sense as a fundamental basis for understanding lines and chords than the four note seventh chords I learned when getting started, because:
- So much swing and bop language is based on a triad structures and triads + a 6th.
- The 7ths on major and minor chords can also either flattened or natural.
- They always sound good
- Swing, Trad, Bossa and Pat Metheny tunes often use triads
- Notes can be added to triads according to taste without worrying about theory so much including open strings etc.
- Stacking thirds is hard to visualise on the fretboard.
- As Jordan indicates, they are very handy for accessing US sounds and highly guitaristic.
- Other reasons that I will think of soon :-)
I'm not advocating never learning the 7th chords. But 7th chords can also be introduced as triad + melody (perhaps moving into triad + bass later on)Last edited by christianm77; 01-20-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by jtr
6 on Im is common in Charlie Christian's music. Not so much in Bird.
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Yes. I believe the basic unit is the triad. Jazz explores it's basic unit as the 7th. But you must master the sound and application of the triad - first preferably. I've seen great jazz players who cannot improvise on triads. One of the things that made Jarrett and Metheny so interesting. So much of their music, even Ornette's, was triads. 7ths didn't work. So it seems to have made better sense to start from the common approach and understand how those 3rds resolve where the 7th is just an enclosure or passing tone. It opens up the ears to basic harmony.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I kind of wish I could go back. To me, making musical statements with triads is much more difficult.
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Originally Posted by Vladan
OK, it's not just trumpets. A pianist playing in a stride style would mostly play 10ths in the left hand. The melody in the right hand might well contain other notes. For example, the first few bars of After You've Gone is (in G) a held B against Cmajor and Cminor. So we would say Cmaj7 and Cm(maj7) from the point of view of modern chord charts.
But a stride pianist AFAIK would not play a B in a C chord except as a RH melody note, and in this case they wouldn't double it.
Bud powell's style was an evolution of this. In terms of harmony, his LH wasn't much different. Tenths, thirds, dom7ths, 6th chords etc.
Right hand - all the bop you can eat including major 7ths etc.
LH/RH - two different worlds. And in the 60s these two worlds got joined up. Pianists started to play with the hands more integrated. And harmonically it all got mixed up too.
Now people see these things as unified and invert them however they want.
To me, it's revealing that Barry Harris teaches Harmony and Improvisation separately. That's the old tradition.
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I really liked your OP Christian
I think you stated your idea really well
And I agree with you ....
To me (at the moment) the sound of western music is made with Triads ...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I mean, if you take melodic devices to the compositional level with a band, and you're writing out parts where you have to make melody jive with harmony.... Kind of continuing the work of Ellington and others who initially developed common practice in jazz harmony....
I'm cool with the notion of things evolving, but many times I feel like these conversations take on a quality of a broad notion that jazz was hijacked/kidnapped, against its will, by the Berkelee illuminati. Players/teachers aren't really playing the music they should or would, if they knew better....
It's pretty natural to have pendulum swings and for succeeding generations Tabaq previous etc., but I feel funny about questioning the motives or even understandings of previous generations. I wouldn't initially assume, for example, that people weren't doing exactly what I thought was cool or wanted to hear back in the 70s.
I'm cool with the idea of alternate choices. I just slightly bristle at defensive overtones to "the conversation" though (not this one). At the highest levels, all schools of thought result in players being able to play together. Much of it is semantics . 6ths are inversions of ths etc. etc.
Sorry for the latter screed. Not directed at Christian or anyone specific. Please disregard if you like . :-)
Christian, thanks for the video. Will check out later.
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Originally Posted by pingu
Even in modern opera there are quartal chord structures and vocal lines, mixed with all variants of 6th, 7th, and "denser" chords.
The same happens in newer classical instrumental music.
That doesn't mean it sounds at all like jazz. So it isn't simply the types of chords used, is it?
To me there's a very different "feel" to the use (stacking, combinations. whatever) of triads and of tension within both the harmony and solo lines within jazz performers.
The notes are technically very similar. The practical use of them is very different.
Does this make sense to anyone else?
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
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There are a lot of ways to organize your thinking. You can use 12 tone or CST, and learn when not to use certain notes, or triads and learn what notes you can add. Using small note collections as a foundation for my ear to build on works best for me.
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Sounds to me we should all start with folk music :-)
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
After all, Pat Metheny and Lage Lund, for example, who are big triad guys were at Berklee. Pat taught there of course.
That said I know some musicians who regard what they were taught at jazz college as big pile of steaming... nonsense. *shrugs* There are good teachers out there, and not everyone teaches the same stuff.
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
12 note tone rows... Not so much.
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