Problems with description of diminished scales

[wolflen]

Thinking about it, enharmonically speaking, I don't think of dim7's from the root really - I think about where they are in the key... So

In C

Bo7/Abo7 - VIIm7b5, but flat the 6 of the key
F#o7 - IV chord, but raise the 4 lower the 7 of the key
D#o7 - IIm chord, but raise the 4, raise the 2 of the key

If that makes any sense.

it does..but I use this as a guide for the root & inversions of the dim chords--C-1o7...Eb-bIIIo7...Gb-bVo7...A-VIo7...

use this formula for Db and D and you have ALL 12 dim chords found in the three diminished scales

Now these four note chords are not found in major diatonic keys..but may function within the key.. as passing chords..7b9 chords..

[Ron Stern]

I like half whole and whole half as names. Does what it says on the tin.

That said you have to know that whole half goes on dim7s and half whole goes on dominants.

Now we're talking. Not only are they unique, but as a consequence, they have different applications.

So why give them both the same name? What are the benefits? Uh . . . What are costs? Endless confusion.

That takes care of two. What else lurks under the bogus rubric of "the diminished scale"?

[christianm77]

it does..but I use this as a guide for the root & inversions of the dim chords--C-1o7...Eb-bIIIo7...Gb-bVo7...A-VIo7...

use this formula for Db and D and you have ALL 12 dim chords found in the three diminished scales

Now these four note chords are not found in major diatonic keys..but may function within the key.. as passing chords..7b9 chords..

That's a very basic thing that you have to understand about o7's (presuming I haven't missed something in your post.)

That said, I probably wouldn't handle F#o7 and Ebo7 the same way in changes playing, despite them being the same diminished seventh chord theoretically.

How do you think about these progressions, out of interest?

F F#o7 C/G
Ebo7 Dm7 G7

[Jonah]

That's a very basic thing that you have to understand about o7's (presuming I haven't missed something in your post.)

That said, I probably wouldn't handle F#o7 and Ebo7 the same way in changes playing, despite them being the same diminished seventh chord theoretically.

How do you think about these progressions, out of interest?

F F#o7 C/G
Ebo7 Dm7 G7

Barry Harris theory for this is so beautifully arranged and so templting to imply)))

[Rhoderick]

(Quote 'BigDaddyLoveHandles Originally Posted by Rhoderick View Post Hello. The Diminished scale is also called The Octatonic Scale, Well, it's *an* octatonic scale. There are others, like various "bebop" scales.')

Hello and Thank You.
Sorry, I was rushing.


Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.
Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

[Ron Stern]

As a group of scales with shared traits.

There are several diatonic scales that share some characteristics just like there are several diminished scales that share characteristics.

My point is that you may be asking too much from the term diminished, holding it to the standard of a specific scale, like lydian, as opposed to using it like you would use diatonic.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "diatonic scale". A category of scales, is my guess. But it doesn't follow that you can call any scale in that category "the diatonic scale". People would always have to ask what you meant, or guess. What's the justification for it?

My point is that everyone else is asking too much from the term "the diminished scale". I say, if it can't be identified with a single scale, it ought not be used.

[Ron Stern]

I'd assume that problems with naming diminished and notating it is mostly the result of the Western music's outgrowing an older set of conventions for talking about harmony, notating harmony etc.

Sounds likely. Wouldn't be the first time.

I really like Barry Harris's thing for renaming the seventh of the diminished chord as a sixth btw. That made immediate sense to me when I read it. Diminished sevenths and all of the conflicting enharmonic notes spellings between harmony and melody are enough to make you want to pull your hair out.

Yes, why should we do it?

If you call it a sixth instead of a diminished seventh, are there possibilities for re-naming the scales?

[wolflen]

Sounds likely. Wouldn't be the first time.



Yes, why should we do it?

If you call it a sixth instead of a diminished seventh, are there possibilities for re-naming the scales?

symmetric harmony can be confusing when mixing scales and the embedded chords in the scales..and then using nomenclature from a diatonic framework to label the chord--

C Diminished Scale

C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

note the 7th scale tone is A .. which is the 6th interval of C

now when the naming of chords like this the logic might have been; ok every interval in a diminished chord is a minor third..that being the case..

the chord formula would be 1-C root..biii-Eb...bV-Gb bbvii-A .. the chord being diminished had to have flat connotations..but in todays parlance its is much easier to name it a sixth (that's what it is) ..

an aside..the chord name-half-diminished is used far less-replaced with the name Mi7b5..a far more accurate name for the chord..and its function..

and NO you don't have to rename the scale as nothing is changed in its structure...

[JonR]

to me..while this approach is technically correct..it is confusing at least..in the overall view both "scales" could be correctly called D diminished scale ( Ddim/Ab ..D dim/B..as the notes are the same..

True, but...

naming a G dim scale(WH) that begins on the note F# an F# dim scale(HW) makes little sense to me..

For me its a contextual thing. I understand that the "G diminished scale" is one that starts with a whole step (G-A) etc. I would only call it "F# HW dim" if the context was an F#7 chord (presumably F#7b9) - because the chord is then determining the root of the scale. I wouldn't call it "G WH dim", any more than I'd call D dorian mode "C major", if the context was clearly D dorian. At the same time, of course, I understand that the pitch collection is the same - it's simply a question of focusing on context.

calling a G Major scale starting on F# an F# scale would drive many players over the edge..(not a mode name please)

Ha! I agree, but I can see a context where an F# name might make sense (locrian obviously), but I try to resist ever using that term if I can - seeing as locrian mode barely exists in practice.

.. music theory- in its present state is confusing enough for new and some seasoned players-luck for us we can work around the suggestions with little to no harm done to the musical universe..

Right.

starting a diminished scale on its own 8th note and naming it a different scale always seem overly complex to me--

Yes, but the problem is that word "starting". We only talk about "starting notes" when defining scales to start with, or writing them out, or maybe practising them. The note that matters - that we should name scales after - is the tonic of the key, or (if there is no key) the root of the chord or mode in play. A real piece of music doesn't necessarily start on that note, and nor do we when we play.

when several top name players taught me a much easier way to digest the dim scale...there are only 3 dim scales C Db D..and each scales has many embedded chords ..starting the scale on another note does NOT change its Name..

Yes, that's a good practice. Similar to always using major scale names, and avoiding spurious mode names! The way any scale is applied doesn't mean its name needs changing. It only needs changing if its usual name might cause potential confusion - which I don't think it is the case with dim scales, because they have no tonal identity, no real "root". (The potential problem with calling D dorian mode "C major scale" is that it might imply that C is the real keynote, when it isn't.)

a C dim scale starting on B is just that..now I just had to work with three scales and its symmetrical points..while many name diminished chords with the Bass note as the root..knowing the "parent" of that chord takes much of the mystery out of symmetric harmony--F Dim Ab Dim B dim are all from the Ddim parent scale..now that I had the logic of the scale I didn't have to "think" of the why and where any longer..much easier for me..

Right.
I might differ there, because how we name dim7 chords (and how we spell them) can depend on function within a sequence. A "Ddim7" resolving to Cm is actually a Bdim7, regardless of which note is the root.

But I agree when it comes to improvising on the diminished scale - the chord name (and spelling) makes no difference there.