Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, but I daresay it took you a while to come to that realisation...

It did? Not sure how you know that.

[christianm77]

It did? Not sure how you know that.

Please take pity on me and at least pretend you are almost as stupid as I am :-)

[NSJ]

BH ‘s Big complaint about modern piano players is that they seem to think that C4 Is Good enough to play in the bass.

The other thing that I found very profound in terms of what he said was, “oh, the piano player is playing Am7-D7, so bird must be playing Am7-D7. Bird was not playing Am7-D7, would be impossible for him to do. Bird was playing and thinking D7”.

Come to think of it, many modern interpretations on how to teach bebop (Eg, Sheryl bailey) pretty much focus exclusively on the dominant seventh .

Which reminds me: I was driving home with a friend of mine who is a seven string arch top player. Who has some very nice guitars. But not nearly as nice as the piano in his house. He actually learned piano first.

I was talking about “Saturday night at the Blackhawk” and he said “ that was the first jazz record he ever bought“. ( imagine having a general conversation about Friday and Saturday night at the Blackhawk everybody knows exactly what that means. )

I said, “I know this is going to sound blasphemous, but I kept thinking, thanks Miles, now get the fuck off the stage so Wyton Kelly can take his chorus “.

he said, ‘ ah, Wyton Kelly there was a real master. He kept playing the dominant seventh chord and kept playing the dominant seventh chord and dominant seventh chord upon after dominant seventh chord“.

We agreed as to the following reasons as to why: movement, flow, blues and bebop.

[mr. beaumont]

Please take pity on me and at least pretend you are almost as stupid as I am :-)

Seeing as I truly understand about a third of what you guys argue about here, I assure you I'm stupider.

But I learned how to play jazz from a 70 year old piano player who loved Erroll Garner. And sometimes he talked about scales, never church mode names, but yeah, scales.

I never knew about CST or that people argued about it until I started joining Internet forums.

[christianm77]

Seeing as I truly understand about a third of what you guys argue about here, I assure you I'm stupider.

But I learned how to play jazz from a 70 year old piano player who loved Erroll Garner. And sometimes he talked about scales, never church mode names, but yeah, scales.

I never knew about CST or that people argued about it until I started joining Internet forums.

But you see I was a dickhead and wouldn't have listened to someone like that. My loss.

[mr. beaumont]

I was afraid of him. I had no choice. If I played too hip for my britches he'd BURN my sorry ass.

And of course, the other thing was simply not knowing there was another way. Ignorance can be bliss. And damn helpful for focus.

[christianm77]

BH ‘s Big complaint about modern piano players is that they seem to think that C4 Is Good enough to play in the bass.

Eh?

[NSJ]

Eh?

In one of his master classes on YouTube, he was harping on the apparently modern tendency of the left hand always Straying away from the bass.

[princeplanet]

"Chord Scale Theory is the opposite of ...? " , OK, I'll take a wild guess, is it ... Pumpkin? ...

[christianm77]

In one of his master classes on YouTube, he was harping on the apparently modern tendency of the left hand always Straying away from the bass.

Not sure what the context is exactly, but pianists are taught not to play in the bass register today when comping because it ‘interferes with the bass.’

Again compare and contrast to actual 40s and 50s piano playing.

[mr. beaumont]

"Chord Scale Theory is the opposite of ...? " , OK, I'll take a wild guess, is it ... Pumpkin? ...

Pumpkin spice. Because everybody loves pumpkin spice.

[NSJ]

Not sure what the context is exactly, but pianists are taught not to play in the bass register today when comping because it ‘interferes with the bass.’

Again compare and contrast to actual 40s and 50s piano playing.

Riight. exactly. He feels that the piano player needs to be there with the bass player. It was in that hour long master class in Spain that’s on YouTube.

EDIT about 3 1/2 minutes in:

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's pretty much opposite of playing by ear. But, somehow, it isn't the only thing opposite.

My take on it is this. Even when I know exactly what scales/modes/arps are being used in a solo I like on a recording, when I play eactly the same scales/modes/arps, I don't sound as good as the solo. In fact, not even close. The difference is partly in the quality of the melody and partly in the articulation of the notes and, substantially, in the time feel.

So, I figure, there are a bunch of skills that like prerequisites for getting what CST may have to offer.

You have to be able to make up good melodies.

You have to be able to find the notes on the instrument and execute them well with tone and articulation.

You have to have great time.

At that point, you can begin to use CST to find alternate harmonic expression. But, you still have to internalize the sounds and be able to make melody with them.

I think its easier to learn more theory than to deal with the basics of imagination and expression. So, it becomes an attractive nuisance.

I'm trying to plan my practice time accordingly.

[Reg]

Yea...same old discussions. Most don't really have an understanding of what CST is about because they don't have an understanding of traditional music theory and functional harmony... but who really cares.

Personally I would suggest putting your time in actually getting your technical, the physical aspects together on your instrument.

Just like actually understanding music theory usually requires..... actual composition realization, arranging and basic orchestration. Going from academia or theoretical simulation to real world practice or whatever one calls the differences. Anyway... developing musicianship on your instrument will be more useful usage of time for most.

I mean how many on this forum can, without rehearsing, play all the very basic scales, arpeggios, chords and all the inversions etc from the three minors... Maj/min. Harmonic min and melodic minor. Any key...Anywhere on your guitar...This requires proficiency on your instrument. Yea...Without starring at your guitar.

How many can sight read a guitar part... transpose a tune you don't know on stage... etc... these are all standard skills that can easily be developed and there isn't any real wrong way... you can do it or you can't.

[Vladan]

Yea...same old discussions. Most don't really have an understanding of what CST is about because they don't have an understanding of traditional music theory and functional harmony... but who really cares.

Reg, while I agree with your previous post at about 60%. Remaining 40%, or 100% of disagreement being one word from it - "easily" - as in "skills easily developed", you should acknowledge that not all of as are, claim to be, intend to be, ever tried to be ... professional, highly skilled players. Many of us, we are just killing our spare time at the office.

All the best, to you. I always enjoy your posts. They opened my eyes in many ways regarding Jazz and guitar playing.

[mr. beaumont]

I mean if you really dig what Reg is saying...if you really know your chords, inversions, basic scales (major and the minors, the common modes, whether you know 'em as modes or alterations of another scale) none of the other stuff matters as much. Chords aren't a mystery, there's only 12 notes that repeat on the neck. Knowing the instrument and having an ear you can trust can get you far without a lick of "theory." And it demystifies theory when you see it.

Time for me to go practice all the stuff I think I can do (but probably can't)

[christianm77]

Yeah, you have to know your basic materials. There’s a tremendous amount of work to be done just on that.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Reg, while I agree with your previous post at about 60%. Remaining 40%, or 100% of disagreement being one word from it - "easily" - as in "skills easily developed", you should acknowledge that not all of as are, claim to be, intend to be, ever tried to be ... professional, highly skilled players. Many of us, we are just killing our spare time at the office.

All the best, to you. I always enjoy your posts. They opened my eyes in many ways regarding Jazz and guitar playing.

I spent far too long assuming the above type posts were more for those with serious professional aspirations or who had 40-hr practice schedule options, but I've found tremendous value in learning these basics myself. They don't take a lifetime if you approach it the way Reg presents, but really his approach is pretty different than most. Sounds a bit like "just everything" on the surface, but what he presents is actually pared down a bit from many other approaches. The way I used to approach the instrument, it probably would have taken a lifetime of 8 hr days, just to get the basic stuff I've gotten together in a couple of years. It's really not that complicated, though I certainly tried to make it so.

[mr. beaumont]

I spent far too long assuming the above type posts were more for those with serious professional aspirations or who had 40-hr practice schedule options, but I've found tremendous value in learning these basics myself. They don't take a lifetime if you approach it the way Reg presents, but really his approach is pretty different than most. Sounds a bit like "just everything" on the surface, but what he presents is actually pared down a bit from many other approaches. The way I used to approach the instrument, it probably would have taken a lifetime of 8 hr days, just to get the basic stuff I've gotten together in a couple of years. It's really not that complicated, though I certainly tried to make it so.

I do find that almost always when I don't "get" something, I can trace it back to a fundamental thing I haven't spent enough time on.

Fundamentals answer a whole lot of questions...

[matt.guitarteacher]

I do find that almost always when I don't "get" something, I can trace it back to a fundamental thing I haven't spent enough time on.

Fundamentals answer a whole lot of questions...

Yep. I finally gave in and gave up on resisting this idea when I looked at some basic jazz exercises which I would've found easy on the piano or saxophone , but was having to actually "work out" before I could even practice the MUSICAL part on my main instrument, the guitar. There's no excuse for that. Honestly, I feel like now I can basically work things out on the guitar about as easily as I could on the piano. Again, I feel like an idiot even saying that , because I'm not a piano player . But that's just how we think about the guitar and the assumptions we make about what it is to learn music on this instrument.

[Vladan]

I spent far too long assuming the above type posts were more for those with serious professional aspirations or who had 40-hr practice schedule options, but I've found tremendous value in learning these basics myself. They don't take a lifetime if you approach it the way Reg presents, but really his approach is pretty different than most. Sounds a bit like "just everything" on the surface, but what he presents is actually pared down a bit from many other approaches. The way I used to approach the instrument, it probably would have taken a lifetime of 8 hr days, just to get the basic stuff I've gotten together in a couple of years. It's really not that complicated, though I certainly tried to make it so.

For the sake of it I can not even assume why you (and Mr. B?) wrote what you have in response to my post?!
I said I agree with Reg and all that, basically I agree with you ... , so what's the deal?

My post meant that for my self and my own purpose, the time I spend babbling theory and armchair philosophy on guitar forum is the time spent the best way possible. I wish I could do all the things Reg think should be done. I can see from your responses, some have already mastered that basic part, some are mastering it as it comes, some are keen on and confident they will ... Unfortunately for me, I'm not that gifted, talented, determined, persistent ... I own a guitar for some 36 years already and still can not nail major scale. I'm kind of Steve Vai type, who said that while music was always easy to him, guitar was not and he thinks anybody who would spend as much time on guitar as he have, would achieve much more in guitar playing domain. Only music is not easy to me, either. it's even harder than guitar.
So, again, if my goal was to play guitar I'd better practice inversions and all that. However, If my goal is what it is, I'm just as good writing on a forum. In that sense, the sheer number of my on topic posts in this thread is revealing.

[mr. beaumont]

I didn't respond to disagree...

[Vladan]

That's why you got "?".

[matt.guitarteacher]

For the sake of it I can not even assume why you (and Mr. B?) wrote what you have in response to my post?!
I said I agree with Reg and all that, basically I agree with you ... , so what's the deal?

My post meant that for my self and my own purpose, the time I spend babbling theory and armchair philosophy on guitar forum is the time spent the best way possible. I wish I could do all the things Reg think should be done. I can see from your responses, some have already mastered that basic part, some are mastering it as it comes, some are keen on and confident they will ... Unfortunately for me, I'm not that gifted, talented, determined, persistent ... I own a guitar for some 36 years already and still can not nail major scale. I'm kind of Steve Vai type, who said that while music was always easy to him, guitar was not and he thinks anybody who would spend as much time on guitar as he have, would achieve much more in guitar playing domain. Only music is not easy to me, either. it's even harder than guitar.
So, again, if my goal was to play guitar I'd better practice inversions and all that. However, If my goal is what it is, I'm just as good writing on a forum. In that sense, the sheer number of my on topic posts in this thread is revealing.

I was just trying to say that , for a very long time, I felt the same way about it that you expressed in that post. Just saying that , since that time, I kind of came to a different way of thinking about it. Most of the shortcuts I was trying to take ended up being more like "long cuts ". Just my experience personally.

[Vladan]

Mat, I do agree on shortcuts, but I think, what you are trying to say is not how I feel and does not correspond with what I think I have said. This is kind of pointless discussion. You can not know my thoughts and feelings, just like Reg can not know what motivates some people who can not play, and some people who can, to bitch over CST and useless theory. That is all.