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Next thing you know, people are playing the first chord of Summertime as a m7.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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12-12-2017 11:07 AM
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Bastards!!!! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
O hi Wes
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In Western Music it does not really matter.. Originally Posted by Dana
But you can look at the Overtone Series to see which came first or listen to a Bell or a Single Vibrating String ( a big one ) and you can hear the Overtones .. which do create Chords ..
In Western Music we have the Tempered Tuning which enables the Complex and Varied System of Chords and Scales..
But the Overtone Series was first ...
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Yes. Originally Posted by Dana
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That is the rock I was throwing into the puddle... Originally Posted by Dana
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Nah! He made Summertime into something fresh and exciting. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Just a hunch, but I'm guessing harmony started with some sort of prehistoric doowop rather than bells or strings. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
John
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Vanilla CST and ARPS ...
The Vanilla Parts integrated with General Theory and using Enharmonic Equivalents ( minor over major major over Minor , Parent Keys , Subset Enharmonic Pentas )
And Arps and Related Arps ..all tied together.
'Yes but he has almost unbelievable technique and Timing.'
Of course ...but do you think complexifying the Subject will improve your Time , Technique , or 'Ear'-
ability to play what you 'hear' in your Mind ?
I know the Answer for Me but everyone has to find the answer for them ...Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-12-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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it was wind blowing in the canes...)))Just a hunch, but I'm guessing harmony started with some sort of prehistoric doowop rather than bells or strings.
but anyways... harmony appears only when there's someome who can organize these sounds into a system...
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Just watched Part Four:
If you skip to the very end, what is Barry saying? Is he advocating "chord scale theory"? I'm asking because I'm not 100% clear on the terminology.
Thanks
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No scale of chords i.e. the 8 note Barry scales (maj6-dim etc) AFAIK Originally Posted by p1p
These scales are used to generate harmonic movements btw, not solo lines so much
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I guess I'll have to look into his ideas more.. seems logical so far, I like his teaching method anyway Originally Posted by christianm77
But each chord belonging to multiple scales is not part of 'chord scale theory'? Suppose I'm not clear on the definition of chord scale theory either
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Agreed ..I was trying to think of sounds in Nature ..but failed lol. Birds maybe ? Originally Posted by John A.
Actually Birds sing more like scales ( with wide intervals ) failed again...
I was thinking prehistoric like with tuned drums the Intervals from Overtone Series and as you say basic chords or diads were probably here before Scales...
was point I did not make ...
Like on long sustained notes (Prehistoric Whales, Allosaurus Mating calls ) you can hear the Octave and the fifth already on one Note ..as Overtones ...and Music gradually exploited that .
Harmony , Chords...Tempered Western Scales much later.
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Barry uses scales to teach improv and harmony, but he hates CST terminology at the very least. There is actually a lot of overlap, but Barry I think places a higher emphasis on what to play and developing language than anything I have seen from CST. Originally Posted by p1p
Anyway .....
Basically with the 8 note scale thing, I can take a progression like,
Dm7 G7b9 C6
And understand it basically as a type of movement within the Cmaj-6 dim scale. i.e. C D E F G Ab A B.
It's the use of that extra note - the Ab - that creates a richer harmonic palette than simply using C major, although all those options also exist, of course, within the 8-note system.
I can then use those principles to create interesting and potentially beautiful harmonic movements that have the same basic impetus (going from 'borrowed notes; into the C6) that can be parallel, oblique, contrary motion, counterpoint, whatever. This is the magic that Barry has developed in his own playing and is best exemplified by Pasquale Grasso, perhaps, on guitar.
In contrast, my understanding of CST is that it would be more like fitting a separate scale to each chord... In a very naive way (feel free to shoot this down CST sensei)
D dorian G altered C Ionian (for instance)
In CST terms, the BH maj6-dim can be seen as a mixture of the C ionian, C harmonic major and - coincidentally - the A harmonic minor. You can see by using an 8 note scale with just one extra note, Barry has added a lot of potential harmony to the major scale, including the minor subdominant chords (common in major keys) and the relative minor modulation.
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Thank you very much for clarifying this, saved me a lot of precious time! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Sure but the point I was trying to make is that the Overtone Series was already here before Man ...and the Fifth and Octave Harmonics pointed the way and Consonance and Dissonance were already here too.. Originally Posted by Jonah
Picture Rod Serling saying this...
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I'm parting ways with my jazz studies for now so I am getting into CST and this site is a great resource.
How about some context?
Get out of the 70's.
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I find it a bit philosophical question... what was there before Man and what was not...Sure but the point I was trying to make is that the Overtone Series was already here before Man ...and the Fifth and Octave Harmonics pointed the way and Consonance and Dissonance were already here too..
Picture Rod Serling saying this...
I mean thinking that 't the Overtone Series was already here before Man ...and the Fifth and Octave Harmonics pointed the way and Consonance and Dissonance were already here too' represents a worldview that also indirectly determines the roles and relations of Man and Nature in the world.... and it is possible I do not completely agree with this worldview
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Hey Robert..All you referring the use of Blue Notes as the vanilla parts.
Minor over major and reverse is from Diatonic functional organization... borrowing with traditional Harmony or theory. Which expands with use of modal concepts to become Modal Interchange. Which is part of the organization of CST....
Basically... there are different approaches to using blue notes. The how you use can part.... embellishment, with organization or not, or from harmonic relationships.
Subset (enharmonic) Pentatonics, parent keys... related arps etc... are generally tied together through use of harmonic organization. Usually functional organization, or tonal organization... or expanded with Modal functional organization, through expanding tonal Borrowing to Modal interchange.
Benson was fairly simple harmonic player... but his use of Blue notes with V I relationships and harmonic rhythmic organization was incredible...and yea, his technique and feel. You can copy... but man, really hard to cover.
Hey Christian... so what type of movement... functional, mechanical etc... If the use of b6 is the source of harmonic movement, what type of harmonic movement. The direction of movement is application right... your choice as to how to realize on your instrument.
And the part about fitting a separate scale to each chord... is again the application, how one chooses to realize. Not the organization.
That may be part of why most don't get CST... trying to understand through the use of an application and not being aware of the organization behind the choices of application. Hmmm that might be good direction of better understanding.
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another example of CST entertainment...
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The overtone sequence is overrated as the basis of harmony in my opinion. Originally Posted by Jonah
It’s not that it’s not important, its more that we are thinking about a composite waveform. Perception of dissonance has to do with the periodicity of waveforms as well as beats to do with tuning etc.
For instance if you go by sine waves in just intervals the minor third is much more compatible with the perfect fourth than the major third (you get a much shorter period waveform.) you can call that the undertone sequence if you like, but that’s just emergent from the maths of fractions.
Obviously reality is much more complicated!
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What do you mean by blue notes? Originally Posted by Reg
I don’t understand what that means. What do you mean by ‘organisation’?Hey Christian... so what type of movement... functional, mechanical etc... If the use of b6 is the source of harmonic movement, what type of harmonic movement. The direction of movement is application right... your choice as to how to realize on your instrument.
And the part about fitting a separate scale to each chord... is again the application, how one chooses to realize. Not the organization.
That may be part of why most don't get CST... trying to understand through the use of an application and not being aware of the organization behind the choices of application. Hmmm that might be good direction of better understanding.Last edited by christianm77; 12-13-2017 at 06:57 PM.
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IIRC, thirds are kind of weird with respect to the overtone sequence. I remember being on the music theory newsgroup* back in the pre-web days, and there was a medieval music historian on there. She would talk about "trines" which, if I understood correctly, were "perfect thirds." The major/minor third thing didn't come in until people started trying out different temperament systems. Originally Posted by christianm77
*(Whereas it was axiomatic on Usenet in those days that every argument eventually devolves to an argument about nazi-ism, my observation about the music theory group was that all arguments eventually devlove to arguments about tuning. I would have liked to have had a dollar for every time I read the phrase, "Well, sure, if you're talking about equal temperament.")
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"Vanilla Parts"- remembering that I am no expert at all on Theory matters( I can Play though ) and that a lot of People on this Forum have been giving me a lot of Info that has been very helpful..for a year and a half .
So for me when I say Vanilla Parts I mean the stuff Jazz Players take for granted ...lol..or even before that stuff...
So ..some might say A Dorian - I would use the Parent Key G major not just think of a Scale..the whole Key of G major is Dorian for A minor..
Each Mode has a Parent Key . Same Notes but a different , broader way to 'hear' them find them IMO.
[Once Classical Conductor Pianist Andre Previn on a Recording Session told Wes ' You were Playing in the
wrong Key there but you sounded so good I didn't want to stop you.'
LOL. Wes knew exactly what he was doing ..Previn assumed Wes was 'Gifted ' but didn't know what he was doing ...I say Wes was BOTH and Previn underestimated him. Wes was far more advanced at Improv. than Previn and probably substitutions too.].
And G major contains the I- IV - V Pentas and their Relative Minor Pentas- vi - ii - iii ( same notes )
And then just basic 'targeting ' of any Chord Tones and extensions..of the A minor 7th 1,b3, 4 , 5 ,7, 9 a
you can land on those and sit there (lol )..
6 is also a Target or Stop Tone depending on voicing of the Aminor ....and major 7th if present in the Chord ..
So each Chord Type has Target or Stop Tones..no matter what Scale or Arp is superimposed etc.
'Blue' Notes- a cool Subject - others can give far better Overview - I love them and use them ...
So for me that's 'Vanilla '- just gets you in the' Ballpark '..( also further ) and very useful and powerful .
Not sure if that's what Reg meant and what others would say ..
CST would probably be much more effective if they separated the Basic parts which really ARE Theory 101- from the more 'Advanced Parts' .
I think CST should also include Pentas more in addition to the 7 Note ( 8 note ?) Scales because Pentas can have ( because of only 5 Notes) all
'Target Tones' - no avoid notes .
Corrections additions will be appreciated if I missed or got something wrong..
I am not Conceptually advanced enough to 'hear' Scales as 'Pitch Collections ' so I need to 'hear ' other things...like hear the Pitches directly or Arps that contain them ..or 'hear' Secondary Arps etc.
Outside Arps ..(Vanilla 2 )
And that would be Vanilla 2 which I am experimenting with but not qualified to 'teach ' or even Post on yet ..lol.
Hey Reg - I always thought when you mentioned the 'Vanilla ' parts that you meant the real Basic Theory stuff that you Guys learned 10 20 + years ago ...
Modes, Parent Keys, ..Subset Pentas .. .the safer easy stuff ..lol.
And I am chromaticizing it anyway - if I want outside tones Intentionally those are in the 'wrong' Pentas..and too much scale material will dilute the vertical Rhythmic Playing I am doing which is less common anyway ....to quote ' Cruisers' it's 'money' .Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-28-2017 at 12:34 AM.
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