Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[Vladan]

Do not miss the 3rd clip from Dolphin Dance series by Reg titled "playing analysis of Dolphin Dance", the real deal ...

[boatheelmusic]

If one applies CST precisely (scales matched to chords) , are they ever playing "outside"?

[Stevebol]

My girlfriends pay cab drivers. I don't drive;

[grahambop]

I like how connected to the blues this is...nice counter argument to folks who say CST is all floaty and no blues and whatever B.S.

Can I pick your brain, Reg? Those last four chords of the form...I've been trying to figure out what I hear as opposed to what charts tell me (The Real Book for this one is awful, for example)

Right now, I'm liking: Eb7sus, Bb13b9/Eb, C/Eb, G7alt...

That’s very similar to what the iReal app has, sounds right to me too.

[Vladan]

I like how connected to the blues this is...nice counter argument to folks who say CST is all floaty and no blues and whatever B.S. ..

What I like is rather funny as much as it is dialectic.

- I start playing guitar and I figure if I go up and down chord tones, eventually slide in and out, wiggle finger here and there, it'll become a solo.
- After some time I get bored of the sound of following the chords. Also, I feel embarrassed, I think everybody can see through what I'm doing and will think it's lame thing to do.
- I think about it, try this and that, and come to something that in time I will learn is "major pentatonic". It's less chordy, but still follows "changes". After same time, I get bored with it and I feel embarrassed, I think everybody can see through what I'm doing and think it's lame thing to do. I feel like floating over is much more acceptable as "good".
- With a help of my friends, I learn that scales can help me solve the problem. Especially minor pentatonic, everything can be played as minor.
- Soon enough, scale tones become boring. I figure, I should learn more scales, but being lazy and living where and when info is not readily available, I figure I should combine above mentioned "methods" and also insert half step approaches wherever I find convenient. I find some pet licks to play over and over again.
- Soon enough I get bored. I figure it must be due simple chords I play, all triads(with occasional 6, 7, 9 sus 4 and dim7) in simple progressions as well as same licks being repeated all over again. I do not think everybody can see through it, but I feel embarrassed of my self. I say to my self to take a look at Jazz, they seem to have some complicated chords and progressions, they're supposed to not repeat learned pet licks, they're supposed to improvise.
- I join JGB forum.
- There, on JGB forum I learn that complicated chords are crap, that I should play triads, that I should not float and play from scales, but rather should play from chord shapes, but first I should simplify chord progressions I'm supposed to follow, as well as turn everything to minor. Also, to really improvise I should first learn the language, which translate too more less codified and prescribed ways and places to insert chromatic approaches and well known idioms, ie. learn and play over and over again some licks being played over and over again by everybody for almost 100 years already ...

[Reg]

Obviously... lots of lousy information.

[Jonah]

What I like is rather funny as much as it is dialectic.

- I start playing guitar and I figure if I go up and down chord tones, eventually slide in and out, wiggle finger here and there, it'll become a solo.
- After some time I get bored of the sound of following the chords. Also, I feel embarrassed, I think everybody can see through what I'm doing and will think it's lame thing to do.
- I think about it, try this and that, and come to something that in time I will learn is "major pentatonic". It's less chordy, but still follows "changes". After same time, I get bored with it and I feel embarrassed, I think everybody can see through what I'm doing and think it's lame thing to do. I feel like floating over is much more acceptable as "good".
- With a help of my friends, I learn that scales can help me solve the problem. Especially minor pentatonic, everything can be played as minor.
- Soon enough, scale tones become boring. I figure, I should learn more scales, but being lazy and living where and when info is not readily available, I figure I should combine above mentioned "methods" and also insert half step approaches wherever I find convenient. I find some pet licks to play over and over again.
- Soon enough I get bored. I figure it must be due simple chords I play, all triads(with occasional 6, 7, 9 sus 4 and dim7) in simple progressions as well as same licks being repeated all over again. I do not think everybody can see through it, but I feel embarrassed of my self. I say to my self to take a look at Jazz, they seem to have some complicated chords and progressions, they're supposed to not repeat learned pet licks, they're supposed to improvise.
- I join JGB forum.
- There, on JGB forum I learn that complicated chords are crap, that I should play triads, that I should not float and play from scales, but rather should play from chord shapes, but first I should simplify chord progressions I'm supposed to follow, as well as turn everything to minor. Also, to really improvise I should first learn the language, which translate too more less codified and prescribed ways and places to insert chromatic approaches and well known idioms, ie. learn and play over and over again some licks being played over and over again by everybody for almost 100 years already ...

I believe only music has this wierd thing when people look at theoretic material as at some secret knowledge that will suddenly open all the doors....

I can't imagine writers or painters think that way... can you see someone like Faulkner thinking - ok I want to write a novel - now I will go to 'writer's Berklee' and they they will teach me how...
After it - hm.. it did not work - probably that guy knows... I'll go pay him and it will surely help... etc.

No.. all writers have is a pen and blank sheet of paper and language everybody speak.. no-one to blame, no-one to hope for...

And it's very simple - the writer's material is already there.. it's their native language... it happened so that they use the same language we use for communication (and it does not make their task easier by the way - because they have to overcome that daily meanings to reveal its artistic potentials)

With music we do not know the language since early years... but I do not get why many musicians do not want just to learn language...


And it seems so simple to me that creative idea always comes first... people study tools because they have creative ideas, it's not that these tools will teach them creativity...
Then you will not get bored.


And as per scales and triads...

another day I watched one of Jordan's youtube lesson.. it was about triad thing + 1 or 2 notes... I like it... I did something like that too...
and I see scales behind too - just organized in a certain melodic way ...

I do not see any contradiction... scales are basic and general thing...
it's application and realization is contextual... and there can be also methods for this too..

[destinytot]

With music we do not know the language since early years...

Yet traditional nursery rhymes are heavily laden with coherent musical language.

And it seems so simple to me that creative idea always comes first

Unless you're building a circus show.

...people study tools because they have creative ideas.

I think that's an excellent and much-needed observation - thank you!

[destinytot]

I like how connected to the blues this is...nice counter argument to folks who say CST is all floaty and no blues and whatever B.S.

If such a counter-argument were required, I think it's easily found among the countless examples of lyrical players who have not only done their homework but also embraced black (American) musical heritage.

[destinytot]

Lydia the Tattooed Lady:

[Jonah]

Yet traditional nursery rhymes are heavily laden with coherent musical language.

Absolutely... we hear a lot of music as we grow... and we definitely hear musical language - that's why even unprepared listners can understand music (oftne better than professionals) and basically that's where the interest for music comes from in kids when they seem to have potential musicality.

But the difference is that we do not use musical language as conventional cimmunication language... common people do not use musical language actively.
Almost anyone tries to write some poetry in youth.. but do many peopel compose preludes or musical exprompts in their teens?)))
We see plaenty of books in the stores that people write and publish all the time... almost any more or less literate and diligent person can make up a readable (though absolutely 'second-hand' in contents and technique) novel, it seems many thinks it kind of self-therapy...
but they will hardly even consider composing a symphony - even the one imitating traditional romatic one - without special education...

So this is both advantage and disadvantage for writing...
advantage is that you're already incorporated in the language deeply
disadvantage is that this language is profaned by daily communication and you really need great deal of talent to make something worthy of it.

And this is both advantage and disadvantage for music...
Advantage is that certain degree of purity and abstracy of musical language (which depends much on how you hear though... some people think that Bach's music is abstract where it has often absolutely direct meaning)
Disadvantege is that this turns music in a sort of secret knowledge...

Common statement that the music is the most abstract art is often taken as something prooved - though I think it's absurd.
There can no abstract art at all...
Even artistic movement abstractionism is not really abstract.

[destinytot]

My girlfriends pay cab drivers. I don't drive;

Ha!

[Vladan]

I believe only music has this wierd thing when people look at theoretic material as at some secret knowledge that will suddenly open all the doors ... And it seems so simple to me that creative idea always comes first... people study tools because they have creative ideas, it's not that these tools will teach them creativity...
Then you will not get bored.

About possibility of getting bored

Like you say, I agree. It is not possible, even for most talented out there, who never played and composed anything, just to decide at one moment they'd to make some music, on guitar, and from that exact moment they to start doing it good, expressing exactly the musical idea they want to express, and so on.

It does not work that way.

There is always some technique of playing, or writing, some system (of organization), originally developed on your own, or learned pre existing one. You have to have the means for your music to be heard. You have to be able to play it, or be able to present it in a way that will enable people who are able to play it to understand what there is to be played. As you go, you come to things which are not exactly what your original idea was, but are fun to do, so you stay with them for a while, explore further, get new ideas, get inspiration, until you get bored. Then, with new experience, you adapt own system, organize composing and/ or playing better, on your own or use pre existing tools, so to come closer to expressing the original idea ...

If you never get bored with own music and playing, chances are you do not play it and/ or hear it very well.

[Jonah]

About possibility of getting bored

Like you say, I agree. It is not possible, even for most talented out there, who never played and composed anything, just to decide at one moment they'd to make some music, on guitar, and from that exact moment they to start doing it good, expressing exactly the musical idea they want to express, and so on.

It does not work that way.

There is always some technique of playing, or writing, some system (of organization), originally developed on your own, or learned pre existing one. You have to have the means for your music to be heard. You have to be able to play it, or be able to present it in a way that will enable people who are able to play it to understand what there is to be played. As you go, you come to things which are not exactly what your original idea was, but are fun to do, so you stay with them for a while, explore further, get new ideas, get inspiration, until you get bored. Then, with new experience, you adapt own system, organize composing and/ or playing better, on your own or use pre existing tools, so to come closer to expressing the original idea ...

If you never get bored with own music and playing, chances are you do not play it and/ or hear it very well.

I do not want to derail the thread... but I was always fascinated by the ideas of 'boredome' and 'laziness' from philosophical point of view... (probably because I am a lazy bore... my favourite John Lennon's songs were 'I'm Tired', 'I'm Only Sleeping' and 'I'm Just Sitting Here Watching The Wheels')))

I never believed that these words mean what they are mostly used for in daily life... there's always somnething else behind it.


But I know a few persons who never get bored with their music and who work a lot without ever pushing themselves.. almost always with passion and interest... they are just so much interested in what they are doing that they do not have time to doubt.
But these are exceptions.

Usually if you begin to doubt that means you lose interest, you're not totally captured by the idea...
if you are lazy to start or renew you are afraid of something or lose interest...

In my youth I was inclined to trust that feeling, later I kind of accepted that sometimes I just have to move these wheels on without really feeling I want to do it now... but I have to and it will work...
Later I more or less learnt to control it...

But still there's a chance you lose that all in a moment...

[Boston Joe]

I can't imagine writers or painters think that way... can you see someone like Faulkner thinking - ok I want to write a novel - now I will go to 'writer's Berklee' and they they will teach me how...

I take it you haven't read a lot of "academic fiction" (I.e. stuff written by graduate literature students). It's often every bit as dry, technical, and mechanical as any overly-theoretical music. But as with music students, if you've got any actual talent, you'll eventually find where the theoretical tools help and where you're on you're own.

[mr. beaumont]

If such a counter-argument were required, I think it's easily found among the countless examples of lyrical players who have not only done their homework but also embraced black (American) musical heritage.

Indeed, the proof is in the music of the people who started thinking this way in the first place...Kind of Blue, anyone?

[guido5]

is Kind of Blue chord scale theory or no chord theory? (Except Cannonball who played ii-V language on all of it...)

[mr. beaumont]

The scale is the chord...grasshopper?

[christianm77]

When I get bored with music, best cure is to put on a random jazz cd (or any music) and start singing and playing phrases from it.

[christianm77]

is Kind of Blue chord scale theory or no chord theory? (Except Cannonball who played ii-V language on all of it...)

I think kind of blue is modal. Literally the scales are written out, not chord symbols.

To me chord scales is a way of retrofitting modal playing into standards & conventional chord symbols etc -came a little later.

[Dana]

Is the scale the chord, or the chord the scale?

And why are there no bones in ice cream?

[lawson-stone]

Is the scale the chord, or the chord the scale?

And why are there no bones in ice cream?

If you ate natural, un-pre-processed ice cream, you'd have to pick the bones out. The crazy thing is, if they left the bones in, then they wouldn't need to put that stick in ice-cream bars. The "Big Ice Cream Stick" lobby has blocked natural, bone-in ice cream for decades. Scandal. And don't even get me started with the shells. You can't get shell-on ice-cream because of "Big Cone" and their despicable lobby, blocking natural, in-the-shell ice cream from US markets.

Trump's fault. All of it, except for what was George Bush's fault, and these are the guys hiding Obama's REAL birth certificate.

[mr. beaumont]

I think kind of blue is modal. Literally the scales are written out, not chord symbols.

To me chord scales is a way of retrofitting modal playing into standards & conventional chord symbols etc -came a little later.

Yes, modal jazz was the beginning of this whole mess. CURSE YOU KIND OF BLUE!!!!

[christianm77]

Turning our frogs gay with boneless ice cream and cst

[christianm77]

Yes, modal jazz was the beginning of this whole mess. CURSE YOU KIND OF BLUE!!!!

Well, with all seriousness it kind of was haha.

A couple of years later all the minor chords have b7s.

Fashion baby