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Originally Posted by ragman1
Different names for serving different function in different situations... same person.
If the chord progression is D7 -> G and the bass player is playing root motion that states (or at least implies) that... and I play a CdimMaj7 resolving to B-7 chord, and someone asks me what chords I was playing, it wouldn't be wrong to say CdimMaj7 and B-7. But it also wouldn't be wrong to say D13b9 and GMaj9.
EDIT: Funny, I started writing this before your previous post invoking my name.
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10-22-2016 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Oh. I must have misunderstood your earlier post.
"The danger is thinking of it as another chord altogether just because it contains the same notes. By that reasoning any group of notes can be anything you want to call it. Technically, for example, x3444x is a CoM7 but you can call it a D7b13 and resolve it to GM7...
But it's not a D7b13, it's a CoM7. So what use has it as a CoM7 ? Don't ask me "
I thought you were saying that using it in a different function doesn't change the name or what it is.
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No, or is it yes? I'm lost!
I think I was thinking that the thread's subject was about the dimM7 and its use. If one treated it as another kind of chord, i.e. a dom7, then the point was lost. Does that make sense? They wanted to know what that type of major chord was used for, not what other chords the notes spelled out. It's probably confusing to suggest that an altered major chord had the same use as an altered dominant because they don't resolve the same way.
(Of course the other way to look at CoM7 is as B/C - and play E harmonic minor over it!).
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I think we might be on two different pages. All good though.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I just did the Gdimmaj7 alternating to Gmaj7 and it sounds very ' inside' and not necessarily Jazz - could be used in a James Taylor type tune almost.
Has a very contemporary sound to my ears but I remember reading that Gershwin favored this Chord.
Anyway I voiced it as a big 6 note piano chord ( on the Guitar ) a very nice compositional Device there !
Also great for Blues in same way.
Nice- thanks Jordan.
I used the same voicing and it resolves really nicely to a G 13 and moved up a minor 3rd resolves to a G9 with B on the low string creating a little turnaround.
The major 7th gives it more color than a straight diminished and voiced properly can be 'prettier' sounding than it looks on paper.
I have it voiced with a perfect fourth on the top strings from the C# to F#.
We ( I ) need to pick your Brain for more of these !Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-03-2017 at 09:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Then there's a tune like Upper Manhattan Medical Group where it's got several bars of it at the end of the form. And some people extend the form the make it last longer... and some people (like in the video below) actually just use it as an intro vamp. Again, not the dimMaj7... just a regular dim7. If we're following the melody and naming based on what's going on melodically it would be like a Dbdim7b13 to a Db6 chord. You could try improvising over it starting with an A major triad moving to a Bbminor triad. That would sort of follow the melodic arch over that section... but at the end of the day, it's just Db diminished to Db major.
Great sound.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
This is pretty old school as far as subs go. I mean 1930s old school. And once the sub is made, you can do stupid modern stuff to it involving the half whole scale.
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Barry Harris uses it as the first chord of Stella by Starlight in that YouTube video.
On guitar it would be something like this:
Bb dim (maj7) xx8655
Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331
F13b9 1x4231
Fm9 1x1113
Bb13b9 x56433Last edited by grahambop; 03-04-2017 at 08:01 AM.
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I'd never thought about it theoretically much before, but now that it's been explained in this thread, I have learned that I use the sound occasionally.
If you have a long passage of Gmaj and you drop the major triad a half step for a moment while the bassist continues to pedal a G, suddenly, there's a Gdimmaj7 in the air.
I see it occasionally, probably more often in Jobim arrangements than elsewhere. I have always thought of it as a dim chord with an extra bit of coloration. But, this thread has me thinking about it some. Appreciated.
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Well here's a thing... Elsewhere we have a debate regarding Wes's use of a B triad on a G7 chord going into C.... It's this resolution.
It's pretty old fashioned in a weird sort of way as I say... Barry Harris describes it as the b7 sub of the tritone sub dominant... So b7 sub of Db7 for instance, going into C major.
Also see Naima...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
One of my favorite things to do with this is to take it one step further. Rather than just pedal the root note, G for example, and move the triad from the F# up a half step to the G... sometimes I like to pedal the entire GMaj chord and stack the F# triad on top of the full harmony resolving up to the G triad. It's a little bit more complex in that now it's SORT OF that dimMaj7 chord... except that it has the major 3rd in it still. So I actually think of that as a Maj7 chord with a #11 (instead of the dim 5) and a #9 (instead of the minor 3). It offers a very similar cadential resolution, but gives a little more complexity to the tension chord, at least in my ear.
GMaj7#11#9
324322
And then also, we can alter the GMaj resolution chord and think about it as a B minor triad
GMaj7
GBDF
3x4322
3x4432
Which means now we can melodically and harmonically mess around with an F# triad moving to a B minor triad (V -> i). Or another cool one could be a GMaj9 resolution which we could create by using a D major triad
GMaj9
GBDF#A
3x4322
3x4232
This would then allow us to move from the F# major triad to D major triad (I -> bVI) and creates some really great movement for improv and comping.
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Jordan..
working with basic triads in this kind of setting has a 'Bach" feel harmonically/melodically .. using arps and melodic patterns in F#maj Dmaj to Gmaj...the chord structures expand with open voicings..anticipations and inversions..Howard Roberts/Ted Greene flavors emerge with some inner voice movement in some of the variations of this kind of stuff
thanks for opening rarely used doors
I just listened to "The City" .. hot stuff...is Oliver Nelson an influence ??Last edited by wolflen; 03-04-2017 at 06:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by wolflen
Originally Posted by wolflen
Originally Posted by wolflen
More directly, and in jazz terms, my direct influences are probably Alan Ferber and Stefon Harris... as I studied with both of them. But ultimately, it's really just an application of the types of things being discussed on this thread into a group setting. Like taking the triadic ideas here and spreading them out through a horn section sitting on top of whatever the rhythm section might be doing. Sort of harmonizing any given melody note with some type of triad and then breaking it down into individual lines that a trumpet or sax can play, and then letting them all intertwine together. There's other things at work in my arranging for sure, but that's probably about 80% of it.
Really appreciate you checking it out and glad you dig it! Thanks again.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Anyway *ahem*
Yeah, the dim7's fall into two main categories functionally:
1) leading tone diminished - i.e. 7b9's without the bass notes - these tend to take the harmonic minor in common practice harmony, for example:
C C#o7 | Dm7 G7
Which is the kind of the same as
C A7b9 | Dm7 G7
with a different bassline
2) common tone diminished - the interesting ones. Non dominant/leading tone in function. Essentially bridging chords.
F F#o7 | C/G
Dm7 G7 | Co7 C
C Co7 | Dm7 G7
C/E Ebo7 | Dm7 G7
C C#o7 | Dm7 D#o7 | C/E (both types of dim 7)
Typical movements used to dress up simpler changes... This stride piano cliche is standard:
C Dm7 D#o7 C/E
The major seventh etc on a dim7 chord is originally the product of a melodic suspension or appoggiatura, one that jumps out at me is the turnaround on Basin Street Blues:
'You'll never know how nice it seems
Or just how much it really means'
Once again, diatonic melody, chromatic harmony.
The idea of fitting a scale over the chord to express a sound came later, but to me the whole-half scale fits best in this functional context.
Much of Jobim's harmony is derived from this kind of stuff common not only in American music but also in Brazilian Choro repertoire. Think Chopin etc.
That's what we have an awful lot in swing harmony. In fact bop rejects a lot of these dim7 chords in favour of sidestep ii-V's or secondary dominants where the melody fits. First inversion I chord normally replaced with iiim7, etc.
Ironically Barry Harris has a good rant about 'why does no one play biiio7 any more?'
F F#o7 | C/G --> F F#ø7 B7b9 | Em
Dm7 G7 | Co7 C --> Usually Co7 removed
C/E Ebo7 | Dm7 G7 --> Em7 A7 Ebm7 Ab7 | Dm7 G7
C C#o7 | Dm7 D#o7 | C/E --> C Eø7 A7b9 | Dm7 F#ø7 B7b9 | Em7
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Christian- when I was young I was trying to learn to smoothly modulate from anywhere to anywhere and I remember the Walter Piston 'Harmony' book which
sucks for Modulation IMO.
I do remember 'non dominant diminished 7th Chords'
and Travis Picking them on Guitar they sounded like
Ragtime Piano .
Are augmented sixth chords the Classical equivalent
of Tritone Substitutions in Jazz ?
Are the 'Distant Modulations' you referred to using the Augmented 6th Chords using them ambiguously
resolving a half step down where the original chord
was V7 and now it resolves like Aug6 ( or Tritone Sub) chromatically?
And do the French, Italian Augmented 6th Chords resolve differently ?
I never got those too well and it seemed like the Pivot Chord Concept of Modulation explains it well ( and I like the Roman Numeral Functions for chords- I 'hear' progressions better that way ) but Piston never explained Distant Modulations well at all and the Pivot Chord and needing to be a common progression in both Keys kind of leads one into only going to Closely Related Keys...and I remember he did not think the original V7 a good Pivot cause it was too strong a function in the original Key !
So I think his ' Modulation ' Concept was a trap for a Novice ....lol .
So now I just use a Target Key or even a Target Voicing and then figure out how to get there sometimes common tones and stepwise motion or just ' go there' and have a strong New Key Cadence...
Or just use the Chordal Region Concept not necessarily a whole Key...just moving from a Chordal Region to another Chordal Region ...Tension Release etc. and some motion towards the new Region .
Seems like Classical Theory for me simplifies some things but masks other things....Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-05-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
E-->F#-->G
A-->Ab-->G
Now here's the thing - that G interval could be part of a G7 chord, as in the classic pre-dominant chord in a minor key (18th century harmony and also, not a few jazz standards)
Ab7 G7 Cm
So far looks like a tritone right? EXCEPT - 1) it's the default choice in minor key 18th century harmony (more common than D7 in that key AFAIK) so not really a substitute of anything, and 2) well, this:
It could equally function as a direct resolution to Cm, probably in second inversion, cos doubled fifths are VERBOTEN:
Ab7#11 Cm/G
This of course can be used as a borrowed chord via major/minor modal interchange:
Ab7#11 C - we see this A LOT. I mean really A LOT. If you haven't seen this move a million times in all the keys you need to go learn you some jazz standards buddy.
This is not in any sense a V7-I relationship, tritone subbed or otherwise. It is closely related to the common tone diminished in fact. Ab7#11 is a cool sub for F#o7 in this context that amalgamates the two main line cliches that define I-IV-I movement in old school jazz, blues and Motown and so on, i.e.
C-E-F-F#-G (From C C7 F F#o7 C)
C-Bb-A-Ab-G (from C C7 F Fm C)
Lookee here! It's an AUGMENTED SIXTH as the penultimate interval. OMG I just wet myself.
Bet your sorry you got me started, amirite?
Are the 'Distant Modulations' you referred to using the Augmented 6th Chords using them ambiguously
resolving a half step down where the original chord
was V7 and now it resolves like Aug6 ( or Tritone Sub) chromatically?
And do the French, Italian Augmented 6th Chords resolve differently ?
Out of Nowhere, right?
The advantage of the chromatic dom7 #11 chord in general as we might call it in jazz land (or it's utility should I say) is it takes a diatonic melody note...
Ab7#11 harmonises D
Bb7#11 harmonises E
etc
I never got those too well and it seemed like the Pivot Chord Concept of Modulation explains it well ( and I like the Roman Numeral Functions for chords- I 'hear' progressions better that way ) but Piston never explained Distant Modulations well at all and the Pivot Chord and needing to be a common progression in both Keys kind of leads one into only going to Closely Related Keys...and I remember he did not think the original V7 a good Pivot cause it was too strong a function in the original Key !
So I think his ' Modulation ' Concept was a trap for a Novice ....lol .
So now I just use a Target Key or even a Target Voicing and then figure out how to get there sometimes common tones and stepwise motion or just ' go there' and have a strong New Key Cadence...
Or just use the Chordal Region Concept not necessarily a whole Key...just moving from a Chordal Region to another Chordal Region ...Tension Release etc. and some motion towards the new Region .
Seems like Classical Theory for me simplifies some things but masks other things....
It bothers me when people talk about melodic minor modes or extensions when talking about the composition of standards. I don't think they knew what that stuff was. Take a nice, largely diatonic melody, and dress it up with some nice voice leading.Last edited by christianm77; 03-05-2017 at 05:38 PM.
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The singer on yesterday's gig called Unforgettable. That tune opens with a written major to parallel diminished major 7th change (unlike I'll Remember April and countless others where it's used as a sub).
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Originally Posted by PMB
A major 7th is a possible extension on all kinds of dim7.
(*If you accept either the chord before or the chord after as defining the dim7's function, then there are only the two kinds christian described. In fact, maybe only one....)
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Thanks very much Christian!Not sorry I asked lol.I need to wade through this and take a good look and play a few examples.And I really need to get it clear because of the Resolutions .I use and like the Major 7 #11 a lot and also the slightly darker Major 7 flat5 .I only call a Maj 7# 11 if theres a perfect 5th also because they can be different under a Vocal .Now I will be writing or am writing Instrumental R&B .I want to review the Augmented Sixth Chords to free my mind more...lol.And use those Resolutions possibly.I was immediately able to plug in the Diminished Major 7th into Blues and as a nice Tension Chord alternating with the ' pretty sounding' Maj7 Maj9 chords as Jordan Klemons suggested to spice it up so it's good stuff.I saw your Youtube Video by the way and you speak very well....an Advanced Theory Series especially if you can get paid somehow might be well received.
JonR- yes I am familiar with identifying a function of an ambiguous chord by it's Resolution...When writing ...chords with multiple resolutions- especially ones that don't sound like a fire alarm are really useful because they can help lead to a Bridge or another Section or Chordal Region or Key etc. and I need all the help I can get .Music is competitive IMO if you try to make money with it .
I even coined the term " Tertiary °vii Chords because you can use them as a ' secondary °vii chord - but a
' Tertiary ° vii chord can Resolve Chromatically upward to the 3rd , 5th , 7th or 9th of the 'Target ' Chord - it usually works too..but there are probably other ways to Analyze it. It is a little too raw and obvious sometimes to my ears the Diminished 7th I mean.
Not sure about multiple resolutions of Dim major 7 yet.Last edited by Robertkoa; 03-06-2017 at 01:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by JonR
L-5, L-50, ES-150 questions
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