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Found this article. Need to read more drum stuff. Chimes in with a lot of what I'm thinking about.
The key to a great drum groove is maintaining a consistent upbeat feel ? TBruce Wittet
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10-14-2016 08:21 AM
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Or you can conceive of the upbeat as a new kind of downbeat .
Especially when it's another beat to hit .
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You've been drinking from the Mike Longo tap haven't you?
If you are into that, try playing the rhythm to Oleo with two handed sticking in 12/8 on the Djembe. That bakes my noodle every time, so to speak :-)
The coordination of the bop rhythm stuff is really interesting, physicalises what you are talking about.Last edited by christianm77; 10-14-2016 at 08:52 AM.
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One of my favorite jazz quotes is from Diz: "The more upbeats you have in the music, the more it swings."
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Yeah, I'm not trying to be esotetric about this stuff.
Originally Posted by christianm77
I think there comes a time (and it has for me) where you have to take stock and assess. You mention the abilty to play simple things well.
I interpret that as the ability to play FUNDAMENTAL and ESSENTIAL things well.
To me, there is nothing mor fundamental and essential about this music than time, time-feel and syncopation. That's why I was drawn to it in the first place. It's what makes jazz jazz.
It's where I need to radically improve BIG TIME. It's what I need to concentrate and focus all my energies on.
You know, every time I think of watching a teaching demo about some esoteric chord scale theory stuff, the player always demonstates the example adding "a little rhythm" to it.
Guess what? the #9/b9/ chord scale lydian dominant alterned nonsnese is not what makes the demo interesting. It's the rhythmic interest that makes it all come alive.
I've thought long and hard about my playing and where I want to go and what I need to improve on. I can learn tunes, the fingerboard is less of a mystery anymore, I know my fundamental chords-voicings-scales such that I don't have to basically struggle with it.
I try to pose questions as simply and concretely as possible. My goal is to improvise pianistically with the guitar, to spontaneously eitether play (1) a bass note against a three note chord; (2) two lines in counterpoint; (3) play a melody simultaneously against an accompaniment.
Where is my playing lacking? Easy to figure out.
I can't nail duple/simple against triple meter, I can't get a handle on compund meter that is articulated and phrased in a jazz style.
That's why "playing Oleo two handed in 12/8 on a djambe" is not an esoteric or intellectual thing at all. It's fundamentally important.
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Here's a transcript of a lesson Ethan Iverson took from Charles McPherson. Lots of interesting discussion about upbeats.https://ethaniverson.com/interview-w...les-mcpherson/
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I always tell students " Accent the "+".....it is extremely important for musicality, imo. The other key is lay back your melody a little behind the beat, and then feel free to be expressive by playing catch up on the beatand then lay it back again. I call it "gas pedal time" (for melody players). Erroll Garner was the master of this.
Last edited by rintincop; 10-14-2016 at 11:01 AM.
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A lot of times, "playing behind the beat" is simply really playing 3 aginst 4. Originally Posted by rintincop
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Great read, thanks. Originally Posted by David B
"Think of the quarter notes not as marching but as ice-skating. Elvin Jones said, “I don’t think of 4/4, I think of 8/8…and the person who told me to think that way was Charlie Parker.” Elvin told that to my son."
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Not only is that a fantastic interview, but it is a complete confirmation of the Dizzy Gillespie by way of Mike Longo conception of "universal rhythym"--how playing in 6/8, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 7/4 dotted quarters, 12/8 all fit polyrhythmically because one person's downbeat is another person's accent. Originally Posted by David B
Everyone's moving the "one" around.
Love this excerpt on Bird:
"In Afro Cuban everything they are doing is that. The bass players are on the “and” of 2 and the downbeat of four. They are never on one. It sounds like they are in seven and it’s just 2/4!
You listen to them and you say “Man what is that?” and they say, “Oh it’s just 6/8, 2/4 or 4/4.” It’s because where they are choosing to accent.
[Sings Charlie Parker blues “Bird Feathers.”]
If I did not put a melody to that and just played the rhythm to it, I’d sound like a great drummer.
You see when Bird wants to play with the Afro Cuban cats….Bird was already that.
He did not have to change anything. Can you imagine Miles playing with an Afro Cuban group?
EI: I guess Sonny Rollins was the guy.
CM: He was the closest. He was next. I don’t even know if Coltrane was quite like that. Trane’s actually straighter. He was wonderful but he did not quite have the corners. If he had the corners that Sonny Rollins had in 1957 and Sonny Rollins had the harmony that Trane had…that’s the way you’d beat both of them. "
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Speaking of Ethan, I've posted this before, but it is possibly the best jazz interview I have read so far.
Interview with Billy Hart - Do The Math
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This is both a strength and weakness of the CST approach. If you play these scales: Originally Posted by NSJ
Major 7 ---> Lydian
Minor 7 --> Dorian
7 --> Lydian Dominant
etc
You will encounter no avoid notes.
Now that means that you have complete rhythmic freedom. Barry Harris (of all people!) points out that intervallic lines allow you more rhythmic freedom than scales (in his case he means running scales up and down with added notes etc.)
Now this is as true of the modern intervallic and non-pattern Gary Burton style modal playing as it is of Barry's third and triad patterns. This kind of thing is kind of the modern concept I hear in a lot of contemporary players, often intermixed with more old style boppish language.
Problem is, there is not natural lilt to the music built in. That's why I think CST suits some people and not others. It didn't suit me, but now I am coming back to it. But it is hard to swing that stuff, because unlike bebop licks, there is no intrinsic stress or resolution or direction built in.
This may be part of the reason a lot of the modern stuff doesn't swing and why modern players still use the bop furniture in their music. Perhaps that interplay between harmony, rhythm and melody is the thing that gives jazz a lot of it's characteristic feel.
No answers here guv, just questions...
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This is the stuff. Thanks again David... Originally Posted by David B
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Boom! I always thought that.There’s a good a example with two different tunes. Miles Davis is the one who wrote “Donna Lee,” based off the changes of “Indiana.” It’s still a great tune, but it is not quite the same thing that Bird and Dizzy had at that time, it is a little more straight.
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You are citing time signatures when you mean to say: Originally Posted by NSJ
2 against 3
3 against 4 not "3/4"
etc...Last edited by rintincop; 10-21-2016 at 05:18 PM.
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A fascinating interview! I estimate he's around 85% correct, but is seems a few of his ideas are questionable... he is not much of a Miles fan. Originally Posted by David B
Last edited by rintincop; 10-21-2016 at 03:38 PM.
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"Major 7 ---> Lydian
Minor 7 --> Dorian
7 --> Lydian Dominant
etc."
What's the etc.???
Rather than playing, I seem to spend more time drawing lines and writing notes out. And a few months ago I came to 1/3 of your conclusion, that for Dom 7 lydian dominant had no drawbacks. Min 7 dorian seems fairly obvious but I def had not thought of lydian over Maj 7 though. Where's my notepad...
Anyways, seriously, what's the etc.???
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KEY POINT : That is African approach not the Indian approach. Originally Posted by NSJ
This should be easy if you have a full command of triplet eighth note subdivisions.
I know all this stuff like the back of my hand, it's basics to me.
Longo is a smart guy but he can confuse some folks into thinking that counting in eighth note groupings is ideal as the the Indian/Asian cultures tend to. They will counting patterns like 123 123 12 12 123 123 is for a 13/8 . It is more trance like and linear in concept.
But Africans prefer superimposing over a 4/4 pulse, because it is more suspenseful, more dance-like, and thus more applicable to jazz which has always usually been a 4/4 music. Remember Africa is where jazz gets its rhythm from not from Asia. Peg your rhythm concepts on the triplet division of 4 quarter notes to retain an exciting dance like African quality.
13/8 not so great for dance.
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OK, these are my stock CST choices for contemporary style free intervallic playing. These scales have (at least to my ears) no 'awkward notes.' Originally Posted by tomems
Major 7 --> Lydian
Minor 7 --> Dorian
Minor/Major 7 --> Melodic Minor
Dom 7 --> Lydian Dominant
Altered Dominant --> Altered
Half Diminished --> Locrian #2
That stuff's pretty standard amirite?Last edited by christianm77; 10-21-2016 at 08:22 PM.
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I think NSJ meant 3/4. There is a 3/4 pulse in 4/4 swing feel, the half note triplet. It's quite subtle. Longo discusses it on his second Rhythmic Nature of Jazz DVD. Originally Posted by rintincop
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Seriously, there aren't many people who can swing and also have a way to explain and teach it. Originally Posted by rintincop
Myself, I estimate McPherson to be 100% correct, at least from what I know so far. He also plays world class saxophone so I tend to trust him.
Perhaps you have more understanding in this area.Last edited by christianm77; 10-21-2016 at 08:32 PM.
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Thanks much. It is. I never thought about Locrian #2 much but I'll give it a whirl. Familiar with the other stuff, albeit clumsily. Originally Posted by christianm77
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No problem. Back to rhythm.... Originally Posted by tomems
Last edited by christianm77; 10-22-2016 at 12:58 PM.
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I do have understanding. Originally Posted by christianm77
CM idolizes Parker and admits he knows very little about clave (and Latin rhythms which all came out of embellishments, variations, and extrapolations of African Tresillio).
He says Wynton Kelly and Red Garland played dotted eight sixteenths swing: false
He said Miles was a symmetrical (boring rhythm) player: falseLast edited by rintincop; 10-22-2016 at 02:52 PM.
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You can disagree with someone on their opinion, but an opinion about something which is inherently subjective can't be false. It's just an opinion. Originally Posted by rintincop
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naming chords?
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