Playing Outside

[Runepune]

0:04 to 0:07 excellent outisticism!!!!

He's playing over a G7 alt. scale (leading to the Cm). The beginning giving a aug./whole tone feel and the end a tritone sub feel (C#). That's very much inside, at least for jazz

[stworzenie]

That's very much inside

But melody is weird

[stworzenie]

Singing outside?

[Jonah]

or just out of tune?

[Jonah]

I may be wrong but this country lick 9:06 (and few other) includes out notes
So we can say that in country are used bebop scales or just chromatics or what?

Outside is always in relation to what you hear as inside... the 'inside-ish' hearing may change with years...

The term itslef is pretty vague - and just describes hearing experience when you hear something goes on quite logically more or less according to your expectations.. and then something goes out of it..

But who knows what are your expectations?

So 'playing outside' should have some reference... what's outside for country may be quite inside for jazz... what's outside for you may be quite inside for me...

[stworzenie]

what's outside for you may be quite inside for me...

I love this perform,full of anxiety in atmosphere of Twin Peaks
Alison chooses disturbing notes,everything become so...ill - I love it!
if not for the specific accompaniment,her sounds would cease to be disturbing and "ill"


or just out of tune?
My brother listening to this says that she sing out of tune

Hm,I dont know what to say :> perhaps not out of tune but with extraneous notes for used key

[christianm77]

My wife is obsessed with Twin Peaks.

[Jonah]

what's outside for you may be quite inside for me...

I love this perform,full of anxiety in atmosphere of Twin Peaks
Alison chooses disturbing notes,everything become so...ill - I love it!
if not for the specific accompaniment,her sounds would cease to be disturbing and "ill"


or just out of tune?
My brother listening to this says that she sing out of tune

Hm,I dont know what to say :> perhaps not out of tune but with extraneous notes for used key

I do not say it's bad.. but to me it's the style like this..

something like Nick Cave or Tom Waits vocals...
they often choose common pop-harmonies but kind of 'de-organize' them with arrangement and performance and their singing out of tune is more about conception of their style...
I would even say it's not about music because actually it does not matter what pitch they take.. it is important just that the whole thing has kind of 'wrong sound'

But I would not call it 'outside' from musical point of view

[stworzenie]

But I would not call it 'outside' from musical point of view

Lets say Illside

My wife is obsessed with Twin Peaks.

Good because this show is extremely mental
and only real neurotics can appreciate his psychological layering

Recommend your wife this

Adrenaline makes me seizures

This OST is also very "psychoLynchical"

youtube.com/watch?v=__93D_cJTlY
Who guesses tonality? ;D

it's so trivial and simple,but!
at this track I have difficulty breathing and hyperventilation
but I can not resist and I must listen to it,sometimes

[Jonah]

I prefer Disney

[stworzenie]

These two scenes I can watch endlessly, I'm addicted
I would like to marry Audrey but she does not exist...

[Runepune]

One may use any adjective to describe one's perception of written music, "dissonant" or whatever, but the harmonic content of the composition is intended that way so "outside" wouldn't mean much. Outside of what? I see the term (in this context) as a description of improvisational movement indicating harmonic structures outside of/not belonging to written or underlying harmony.

But some may disagree

[Jonah]

One may use any adjective to describe one's perception of written music, "dissonant" or whatever, but the harmonic content of the composition is intended that way so "outside" wouldn't mean much. Outside of what? I see the term (in this context) as a description of improvisational movement indicating harmonic structures outside of/not belonging to written or underlying harmony.

To me sounds very reasonable and practical...

the only thing is that underlying harmony is also subject to interpretation and then we get all the same factors involved: style, individual background, hearing etc.

Say you hear Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7? What is belonging to this harmony?

If we say chord tones or all c major notes then that means that we apply functional tonality logics to it.. this is already interpretaion of harmony..

If we say we can play Lydian dom over G7 then it means we apply chord scale concept - or tritone sub... it does not really matter how we formulize it...

even if we do not name it at all... when we make note choices for melody we already organize these changes basing on some musical concept

[fasstrack]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but:

Outside/inside, if you don't hear it it won't wash. Just my opinion...

[fasstrack]

One may use any adjective to describe one's perception of written music, "dissonant" or whatever, but the harmonic content of the composition is intended that way so "outside" wouldn't mean much. Outside of what? I see the term (in this context) as a description of improvisational movement indicating harmonic structures outside of/not belonging to written or underlying harmony.

But some may disagree

I agree, or I think I do---if you're talking about structure as a guideline/menu for playing. The harmonic structure of a piece tells you what to play. If it's out, play out. If it's in, play in. Do the opposite and your s&*t just might sound funny, like it doesn't fit.

Unless I misunderstand you, a distinct possibility...

[christianm77]

Doesn't everyone love Audrey?

Well I don't know about you but I'd like to be more like Agent Cooper.

[christianm77]

BTW - if David Lynch isn't outside, I don't know who is.

[Vladan]

Is Bjork singing outside, or Sinead?


Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

[stworzenie]

True outsiders

[christianm77]

To me sounds very reasonable and practical...

the only thing is that underlying harmony is also subject to interpretation and then we get all the same factors involved: style, individual background, hearing etc.

Say you hear Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7? What is belonging to this harmony?

If we say chord tones or all c major notes then that means that we apply functional tonality logics to it.. this is already interpretaion of harmony..

If we say we can play Lydian dom over G7 then it means we apply chord scale concept - or tritone sub... it does not really matter how we formulize it...

even if we do not name it at all... when we make note choices for melody we already organize these changes basing on some musical concept

Dm7 G7 C = outside --> inside.

Up to you how outside outside is and whether you can be bothered to go inside.

The most outside note in the major scale is 4.

[Boston Joe]

Doesn't everyone love Audrey?

I was, let's say, extremely interested in Audrey/Sheralyn Fenn for a while. The scene where she ties a cherry stem in a knot with her tongue was... intriguing to a 20-something, girlfriendless me. If they'd had DVRs back then, I'd probably have watched that scene an unhealthy number of times.

As for outside playing, I tend to think of it as a situation where the underlying harmony does one thing and the soloist does something else. If there's internal logic to the line, it'll sound good. Since the bebop days, players have pushed that so a lot of what might have been considered outside at the time (altered stuff, diminished stuff, etc.) is pretty standard and not really thought of as outside anymore.

But, for example, superimposing a Coltrane cycle over a II V I would be something I'd consider outside. You're visiting three key areas where the background stays in one. You'd be hitting a lot of notes that would probably sound terrible on their own, but the internal consistency of the cycle makes sense to the ear, so you're hearing it as a harmonic statement that departs from the background, but relates to it in a way that the brain can process. (Like a lot of stuff, you're depending on the brain's pattern-recognition instinct to tie it all together.)

BTW - if David Lynch isn't outside, I don't know who is.

I love Lynch. I think it's because a lot of my nightmares have a distinctly Lynchian quality to them. People with inappropriate facial expressions - maniacal grins, mostly - and characters and actions that might seem normal but have weird sinister undertones. They can be very disturbing. Fortunately, they don't happen that often.I must have watched Mulholland Drive 3 or 4 times trying to figure it out.

[christianm77]

As for outside playing, I tend to think of it as a situation where the underlying harmony does one thing and the soloist does something else. If there's internal logic to the line, it'll sound good. Since the bebop days, players have pushed that so a lot of what might have been considered outside at the time (altered stuff, diminished stuff, etc.) is pretty standard and not really thought of as outside anymore.

Before the bebop days in fact. Here are two of favourite pre-bop outside moments. Check out the like at 0:52. WTF???

Django here at 0:23

Just little moments of craziness... Loads more in Django and Stuff Smith's music...

But, for example, superimposing a Coltrane cycle over a II V I would be something I'd consider outside. You're visiting three key areas where the background stays in one. You'd be hitting a lot of notes that would probably sound terrible on their own, but the internal consistency of the cycle makes sense to the ear, so you're hearing it as a harmonic statement that departs from the background, but relates to it in a way that the brain can process. (Like a lot of stuff, you're depending on the brain's pattern-recognition instinct to tie it all together.)

Anything sounds good if you play it fast enough (Allan Holdsworth.)

Sometimes analysis of outside lines ends being like the Rorschach inkblot test, no? The dude just played some random shit, deal with it. Especially true of Allan.

I love Lynch. I think it's because a lot of my nightmares have a distinctly Lynchian quality to them. People with inappropriate facial expressions - maniacal grins, mostly - and characters and actions that might seem normal but have weird sinister undertones. They can be very disturbing. Fortunately, they don't happen that often.I must have watched Mulholland Drive 3 or 4 times trying to figure it out.

I think many people feel that way. Lynch has an uncanny way of tapping into the subconscious.

[Jonah]

Before the bebop days in fact. Here are two of favourite pre-bop outside moments.

Nice.

That's what I would really call 'outside' - because in reference to style they really sound so.

Outside is the meaning.... and obviously here it is the touch the players wanted to bring in... even if they did not think of it.

[Boston Joe]

Anything sounds good if you play it fast enough (Allan Holdsworth.)

Sometimes analysis of outside lines ends being like the Rorschach inkblot test, no? The dude just played some random shit, deal with it. Especially true of Allan.

It's that pattern recognition thing.

I love Holdsworth. He's found a setting in which what he does works. I tend to think of his style as "digressive". But I don't think its just the speed that does it. His chordal playing is equally idiosyncratic.

I think many people feel that way. Lynch has an uncanny way of tapping into the subconscious.

He does. It's kind of amazing. The first Lynch film I ever saw was Eraserhead. I think I was 16 when I saw it. Freaked me right the heck out.

[stworzenie]

I heard about him