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Excellent, John, Thanks!
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07-12-2009 10:53 PM
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Hey Mike Walker, nice solo on Body and soul "aged 18", on your site!
Originally Posted by mike walker
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What an excellent exercise!
This one will be in my book from now on, trust me!
Peace Originally Posted by JohnW400
Skei (the quoter one)
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Thanks Joao. Originally Posted by jonasfixe
Not heard that in an age to be honest.
I posted a couple of clips on you tube...impressions...Blue Bossa..and another one i can't remember. Check if ya like more straight ahead stuff.
Cheers fella,
Mike
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It really is just this. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Home in D Dorian is D. Home in E phrygian is E. Imagine that!!!
When you play an E in D Dorian you're playing (and hearing) a 9th in Dmin
When you play an A in G mixolyd you're playing (and hearing) a 9th in G7.
Like John says, get used to the sound for each one, play the chord then the sound/scale/mode.Last edited by mike walker; 07-16-2009 at 01:14 AM.
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[quote=mike walker;41640]
When you play an E in D Dorian you're playing (and hearing) a 9th in Dmin
When you play an A in G mixolyd you're playing (and hearing) a 9th in G7.
quote]
What are you hearing when you play an F# in G mixolydian?
Not being facetious. Just remembering someone told me that there are lots of ways different people are hearing the same thing at the same time. It would be interesting to take a survey to see what people really are hearing sometimes.
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[quote=Val;41780]
the bebop lick Originally Posted by mike walker
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[QUOTE=Val;41780]
No worries Val. I'm being pretty literal. In the same way, what you're hearing is a Maj 7th. It'll sound hard depending on context. Passing note as Randall says gives a Bop vibe. Now obviously you might 'hear' an onion or a bus go by or a bird whistling and i might hear a carrot or a dog bark....that's a different thing, and more subjective as in 'how do we know we see the same colour?' Originally Posted by mike walker
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Yes, when you're really playing, you're guided by things that you learned, and what they suggest. But to learn them in the first place you had to either find them yourself, and explain them to yourself in your own words, or get an explanation from someone else, in their words, which doesn't work if you don't understand them. Originally Posted by JohnW400
When you play with others the problem becomes acute. Words matter. In order for there to be communication, people have to agree on terms. Which means "it makes sense to me" is not enough.
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
When your soloing the only 'words' that matter are the notes coming out of your guitar.
If you're analizing a tune before playing it the sure, you may want to consider things like key's , chord qualities and other useful things that one uses to do analize but honestly, it still comes down to is it major, minor, dominant, diminshed or augmented. Nobody I know calls A7#11 an A lydian dominant when writing out the chords to a song. The only exception might be modal tunes but even those are left open to interpretation.
For example Mahavishnu Orhcestra has one composition where the 'pedal" or tone center is an A. According to the musicbook of scores , they mention that for the solo section each soloist had to play a mode based on his astrological sign and the scale that corresponded to it. SO even though John McLaughlin may have written the tun in say A dorian, the solo section was left open an up to "chance"
Again I tell you, don't get hung up on terminology. Learn what it's called memorize what it sounds like , then pull it out on the bandstand when you need it and leave the terminology back home in the textbook.
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Oh bloomin' heck, now I have to learn A minor Taurean, do I?? Originally Posted by JohnW400
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Yes I got a kick out of it when I read it.
It's kind of like all that strange stuff that started happening to 20th century classical music with all kinds of unusual charts and directions from composers.
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Don't forget about the Melodic Minor Modes, Be-bop scales, and the others.
To answer the question:
There is a diatonic sequence and it is from ancient Greek music. All of the modes are Greek. We have changed them slightly so that we can play jazz. We alter some things just enough so that it doesn't sound boring. I think we have all heard music where the "rules" are followed either too closely or not close enough. Being able to know how to alter a mode is something that can only be learned with the ears. No book will teach you to play jazz. It will teach you how jazz is played. If jazz musicians always followed the books, there wouldn't be any jazz. It'd still be Greek. However, it is a fine line between old and new and I, myself, am not able to walk that line yet. Every once in a while I will catch myself playing a really nice solo, but usually, I'm practicing modes and chords and things. :|
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The ancient Greek modes are not the same as the modern notion: Musical mode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Originally Posted by Turtl3
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Yes, I have heard that the Ancient Greek modes went in the opposite order and we switched them. Either way, that is where they are derived from. I though it was interesting that Lydia and Phrygia were both places in Asia Minor. Very interesting.
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04-03-2010, 10:48 AM #141Baltar Hornbeek Guest
this whole "my book says so" nonsense is just a "wind up" folks. this cat will jerk your chain for ever, if you let him.
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04-03-2010, 11:24 PM #142Baltar Hornbeek GuestWhen your teacher says this to you, it's time to move on. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Man, I found it very difficult to get through this post.
Why all the analysis? Why all this 5th of that stuff?
My way of thinking of this is much simpler. It's also probably completely wrong, so please feel free to shout at me!!
Modes and scales are basically the same thing- they give a basic set of notes that fit, naturally, over a given chord. They are not the ONLY notes you can play--they are a starting point.
To me-it's nothing to do with what key you are in, and none of it relates to other keys or other scales, modes or anything else in any meaningful way whatsoever.
If, for example, you are playing a C major or CMaj7th chord, the basic set of notes that "fit" with that/those chords is the Major scale. If you are playing a C7th, then the 7th (the B) in the major scale clashes with the dominant 7th in a C7 chord-the Bb in this case. So-you have Mixolydian mode to give you a given set of notes that fit naturally over the C7 chord. If you are playing a C diminished, you'd have the diminished whole-half scale, which has the flat 3, flat 5 and double flat 7th.
C minor? Aeolian mode has the flat 3rd, but also has a flat 6 and 7, Dorian has a flat 3 and flat 7, wheras the jazz minor only has the flat 3rd. So,the basic set of notes that fit over the C minor is the jazz minor scale. C Dorian fits over a Cm7. Naturally.
They are a starting point, these scales and modes. Something for robots to do.
Something to start you on your way to create melody whilst describing the harmonic feel of your music.
Knowing the scales and modes is the beginning of wisdom. It is the fundemental set of notes that fit naturally over a given chord. Nothing else is important. That DOESN'T mean you can't put other notes apart from the ones in a given mode or scale over a chord--Indeed, the notes outside of the scale or mode is what I call "Originality". The other notes, not in the basic mode or scale, are what makes music original and exciting.
Scales and modes give you the basic foundation to make melody. The content of the scale or mode hints at the harmony-the FEEL. What lies outside of the scale or mode enhances that.
Anything apart from that is really a way of someone trying to teach you how to be original, or to describe originality. It's bluffing.
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Originally Posted by billkath
Man, I found it very difficult to get through this post.
Why all the analysis? Why all this 5th of that stuff?
My way of thinking of this is much simpler. It's also probably completely wrong, so please feel free to shout at me!!
Modes and scales are basically the same thing- they give a basic set of notes that fit, naturally, over a given chord. They are not the ONLY notes you can play--they are a starting point.
To me-it's nothing to do with what key you are in, and none of it relates to other keys or other scales, modes or anything else in any meaningful way whatsoever.
If, for example, you are playing a C major or CMaj7th chord, the basic set of notes that "fit" with that/those chords is the Major scale. If you are playing a C7th, then the 7th (the B) in the major scale clashes with the dominant 7th in a C7 chord-the Bb in this case. So-you have Mixolydian mode to give you a given set of notes that fit naturally over the C7 chord. If you are playing a C diminished, you'd have the diminished whole-half scale, which has the flat 3, flat 5 and double flat 7th.
C minor? Aeolian mode has the flat 3rd, but also has a flat 6 and 7, Dorian has a flat 3 and flat 7, wheras the jazz minor only has the flat 3rd. So,the basic set of notes that fit over the C minor is the jazz minor scale. C Dorian fits over a Cm7. Naturally.
They are a starting point, these scales and modes. Something for robots to do.
Something to start you on your way to create melody whilst describing the harmonic feel of your music.
Knowing the scales and modes is the beginning of wisdom. It is the fundemental set of notes that fit naturally over a given chord. Nothing else is important. That DOESN'T mean you can't put other notes apart from the ones in a given mode or scale over a chord--Indeed, the notes outside of the scale or mode is what I call "Originality". The other notes, not in the basic mode or scale, are what makes music original and exciting.
Scales and modes give you the basic foundation to make melody. The content of the scale or mode hints at the harmony-the FEEL. What lies outside of the scale or mode enhances that.
Anything apart from that is really a way of someone trying to teach you how to be original, or to describe originality. It's bluffing.Well, if you are in the key of C for example then that makes C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrain. So, yes it does matter what key you're in. The key can change(and change back), but the overall key is very important even if it's only for analyzing the tune. The modes are based on keys. However, the individual scales for altered chords do not have a specific key-mode relationship that I am aware of. Also I remember something about switching to the fourth of the key to change keys."To me-it's nothing to do with what key you are in, and none of it relates to other keys or other scales, modes or anything else in any meaningful way whatsoever."
Does anyone know the "rules" about changing keys? I would love to hear an explanation.
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If it helps any......
I always think of chords as soon as I come across a new scale. For any scale you can derive chords based on stacked thirds (I know you can stack fourths, as in quartal harmony, too, but I'm only just getting to grips with that....let's stick with the simples here).
So, a C major scale - C D E F G A B C gives you the chords...
Cmaj(7) Dm(7) Em(7) Fmaj(7) G(7) Am(7) Bhalfdim(7)
If faced with a progression going Am7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I don't think I can use A aeolian over Am7, D dorian over Dm7, G mixolydian over G7, and C ionian/major over Cmaj7. I just think "oh that's all in C major, so I'll use the C major scale and emphasize the chord tones of each chord as I'm on it". So much simpler.
If I'm playing over an 8 bar vamp on Dm7, I'll think "I can use D dorian, D phrygian, or D aeolian here, and each will give me a slightly different flavour/colour" (Again, I know there are other scales/modes I could use, but again, start with the simples).
I know all the chords built from a major scale cold. So, I tend to use the major scale and it's modes (the natural modes) most at the moment. As I get more comfortable with which chords are built off the harmonic minor, jazz melodic minor, diminished scale, etc., I'll use those scales more. Right now, I just use jazz melodic minor and the altered scale over a min/maj7 chord (use the melodic minor....yet to see one of those chords in a chart I've had to play tho....) or over an altered chord (had lots of those, the altered scale is so useful).
This means my playing right now is very diatonic. But hey, I've only been playing jazz a few months, and I know these tools well enough to work with them. Over time, I'll get more familiar with the more exotic tools. To be fair, there are other things I do, which I know in the moment and primarily bye ear, will work. But, for me, it's a little pointless to learn a scale unless you also learn which chords are derivable from that scale. And from there, you're also better equipped (in my humble jazz newbie mentality) to use those scales in even stranger places (e.g. playing D dorian but thinking of the Dm notes of D,F, and A as the upper structure notes of a different extended chord).
For true modal music, you really need to go back to folk musics, and church music, which is where the (natural) modes came from. But you'll never make a ii-V-I in Cmajor sound "modal" - it can't be done. The ii wont sound like D dorian, it'll just sound like the ii chord of C major. Mainly because it is.
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Thank You, that's the way I like to see it too - very much simpler! Originally Posted by Scrybe
/R
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Maybe. And only if the song follows those diatonic scale chords. Some don't. Some songs might go from a C major to a D major. The key signature hasn't changed-it's just the way the song is. A D-Dorian wouldn't describe the notes in a D major chord as well as it describes the notes in a d minor 7th.Well, if you are in the key of C for example then that makes C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrain.
And there you have it. For Analysing. For describing what someone else has done.The key can change(and change back), but the overall key is very important even if it's only for analyzing the tune
To me, that's the only real use for them-it's a method of describing what is in a piece of music.
One might say something like "And in this phrase, notice how Pat Methany has gone from the C major scale to the F lydian". And you'd be correct, in theory. However,in truth, Pat Methany has simply sharpened the 4th in that C major scale at that point because it SOUNDS GOOD in the song. It brought the song in the direction he wanted it to go.The sound and feel of the song. He wasn't thinking about scales or modes, he simply was being original. To DESCRIBE what he did we might say what we said.
This is the small problem I have with all this transcribing and study. It just shows you what somone else thought was good. It helps you understand what physically and theoretically did. It doesn't necessarily describe WHY they did what they did.
And that's the problem with analysis. In my little world, the danger is you are might simply be retreading over what someone else has done before. Nothing wrong with that, of course, to some extent-it's just not original.
It's not the theoretical knowledge that makes people great. They might be technically great, but they'll never be recognized as innovative and original-just another clone ion a long line of clones. (Extreme view there, but you know what I mean-it can be robotic)
I've seen many books describing Beatles songs in these terms. John and Paul had no formal training, and knew none of these terms. When they found a harmony that worked they said "Wow-this is Cool!", wheras George Martin would say "Yes, boys-that's a Major 6th" or "Yes-you've modulated this or that or gone into a mixolydian mode there". Copying what they did will not make you John and Paul. And why would you want to be?
Just an opinion, now!!
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It has been a long while, but... Originally Posted by Turtl3
classical theory has it that you can change key using a V7-I cadence. For even more resolution, you can use a ii-V-I cadence. Or, better, a iib-V7c-I cadence (ii in second inversion, V in third inversion). Same as in jazz.
In classical theory, popular places to modulate to are the relative minor, a fourth above or a fifth below. Relative minor seems very popular, in my limited listening and analyzing experience. Of course, you'd be using the harmonic or melodic (classical melodic, so melodic ascending and harmonic descending) scales for your melody and chords.
I also vaguely recall suspensions, german and neopolitan 6ths being used to help with modulations. But I really can't remember any of that clearly, mainly because I never had cause to play it on my guitar.....
But, you can actually modulate anywhere, just by using the ii-V-I. In jazz, look at All The Things You Are. Starts in Abmajor, and modulates to Cmajor, Ebmajor, Gmajor (basically spells out an Abmajor7 arpeggio in it's modulations). Same thing goes for the minor ii-V-i.
With modal jazz, my understanding is that the modulation occurs simply by jumping immediately to a new key. So What being a clear example - 8 bars or so on Dm, then 8 on Ebm, then back to Dmin. For that to work, I think you have to spend more time on one chord (so 4-16 bars on one chord, instead of two chords per bar) than with more 'classical' harmony (I'm using that term very loosely here). The rule a local piano player and modal fiend told me here was "as long as you keep hitting that root note, that's what establishes the tonal centre" - so you can go anywhere, provided you keep hammering the root note. May well be why lots of modal stuff has pedal bass notes, or repeated bluesy bass riffs...
But if you look at the notes in Dm7 (D F A C) and Ebm7 (Eb Gb Bb Db), they're completely unrelated. Another way to modulate, which I think is what Wayne Shorter does a lot in his compositions, is to use to unrelated chords that share a few notes. These common tones are what make the key change sound smooth, despite the chords being unrelated. I don't know enough of or about Shorter's tunes to use him as an example here, but a simple one I always think of for this is the tritone substitution. Instead of using it as a substitution, start a vamp, say on E7. The tritone partner of E7 is Bb7. E7 and Bb7 re seemingly unrelated. Even thinking of them a chord V, their respective chord I's are also unrelated (Amajor/Amin and Ebmajor/Ebminor in this case). But playing 4 bars of E7 then switching to 4 bars of Bb7 can work (especially if the melody or top voices contains the tritone) because they share the same tritone interval.
Also, I haven't tried this one much yet, but you can also change tonality in a riff driven piece, and use that to modulate. Say your head has a repeating figure in C major playing the 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 3, 1. You want to modulate. First, play that riff in C major, then play it in C minor (so, depending on which minor scale you use, we'll go with simple aeolian/dorian/melodic/harmonic minors here) so it becomes 1,2,b3,b3,5,b3,1. If using e.g. C phrygian, it would become 1,b2,b3,b3,5,b3,1. Then use the switch from C major to C minor to help you modulate (e.g. the C minor can then be the ii, iii, or vi of a different key and you can ii-V-I, vi-ii-V-I or whatever in that key to establish the new tonic).
Fwiw, I'm using "classical" in the very traditional renaissance through to about 1850 sense here. Later in the 19th century and through the 20th century, classical music also breaks heavily with these rules. I'm thinking more Mozart with my use of the term here than Bartok or Messiaen...
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At the risk of sounding pedantic.... Originally Posted by billkath
Actually F lydian and C major contain the same notes, so he wouldn't have sharpened the 4th of C major at all. Chances are, if someone writes this about a Pat Metheney piece, what they actually mean is Pat used the C major scale, then played the F note in the Cmajor scale. If he played the F note over an Fmaj7 chord, it would just sound like he was playing the root of the chord. If he played it over a Cmaj7 chord, it'd sound a little funkier, but still nothing beyond the scope of the C major scale. It tends to be prevalent among guitar theory books to complicated things though.
I've seen texts where they seriously say stuff like "we can use G mixolydian to play over this G7 chord, or we can superimpose D dorian over it!" No, you haven't superimposed anything. Those two scales have the same notes. You've just used the same pitch combination and emphasized the D, F, A, C instead of the G, B, D, F. So, in actual fact, the only difference is emphasizing the A, and C notes instead of the B and G notes. But if the student blows the entire scale over the chord, it wont sound much different.
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My mistake-I meant C lydian. Does that make more sense?
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