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Hi, I am studying jazz and right now Im into the Jody Fisher Chord Melody book and he says that the diminished chord can be used as a passing chord upwards for example:
C-C#diminished- D minor 7
But my question is that if it can be used downwards, he doesn't mention this in his book, for example:
Aminor7-Ab diminished- Gmajor 7
Can it be used this way and why or it is only used upwards?. Thanks!Last edited by Manuel Crespo; 02-26-2016 at 06:42 PM.
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02-26-2016 06:29 PM
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It's most commonly found as a connection between the iii and ii chords, as in Out of Nowhere:
B-7 Bbo7 | A-7 D7 | GΔ7 |
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Barry Harris says:
The Flat Three Diminished goes to the Two or to the Three.
Try:
I bIIIo IIm7 V7
Similar to the Out Of Nowhere example above.
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If it sounds good; it is good.
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for your example Aminor7 - Ab dim - Gmajor7
doesn't the Ab diminished essentially play the role of a tritone substitution?
I say it works OK.
I'm sure I'll get schooled if that's wrong
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In Alan Kimgstone's book (he posted above) on Barry Harris, his chapter on movement (Chapt 2) lays out the uses of all the dim chords. The bIIo wants to resolve to the IIm7 thus that is why you usually don't see the bIIo being used often in a tansition like ii-bIIo-I.
Play:
Imaj7-bIIo-IIm7
then
IIm7-bIIo-Imaj7
same chord (bIIo) but now functioning in two different ways and sounding different.
Can it be used, sure, but it's not the best use of the chord.
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The answer to this question depends on context:
If you like Dbo7 --> C and you are writing a tune, say, use it. Or if you like the sound, write a tune with it in.
If you want to prepare yourself to play changes based harmonic jazz, and want to know whether this is a common progression, you'd be better off learning more tunes and looking for patterns. This is how I learned.
I had to, because most of the jazz theory books are pretty sketchy on harmonic changes, TBH. A lot of them briefly discuss ii-V's and go onto modes.
Barry Harris is about the best I've come across for teaching how to actually play and understand changes (including dims), but he'd be the first to tell you to learn songs.
Diminished chords are common in prewar jazz tunes, and in the music of Jobim. Later versions of changes (the Realbook etc) tend to replace them with ii-V's so it's important to look at a few different versions of the changes to build up a picture of how these chords function and how they are most often subbed.
There are really very few theory questions of this type that can't be answered by a dip in the Great American Songbook. Which is always a good idea for all sorts of reasons.Last edited by christianm77; 02-27-2016 at 08:15 AM.
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I think of that move as the Embraceable You change.
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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02-27-2016, 10:34 AM #9destinytot Guest
Does this count as diminished as a downwards passing chord?
Imaj7 with 3rd in the bass, to bIIIº, to II, to V
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Yep. IMO iii-7 and I/iii are interchangeable in this context. Originally Posted by destinytot
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After fiddling around with this with guitar in hand this morning, I'm not so sure now. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
for your example Aminor7 - Ab dim - Gmajor7
doesn't the Ab diminished essentially play the role of a tritone substitution?
I say it works OK.
I'm sure I'll get schooled if that's wrong
Ab diminished to Aminor7 sounds much more natural to me.
I think I'll retract my earlier idea . . .
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The label... pretty much says it all If your using the chord as a passing Dim. chord, that's what it is. If your getting into theory... your getting into function. Which leads to what function your using the chord as... if it's passing, then your implying chromatic function... not dominant function.
Chromatic function is really just term for describing resulting chord from voice leading or auxiliary source of notes from which the chord is derived.
Are you using the chord as harmony to imply where your going, you have a tonal target and the relationship of the dim chord is to imply that target... or is the chord a result of movement towards the chord... with out implying the target. Result of voice leading etc. Same chord can have different function.... just depends on how used in stop time context.
One time is passing or chromatic function... the next you use as camouflaged dominant function... lots of names from different analysis.
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Some chord progressions can be reversed around and other ones not so much.
It's quite interesting when you think about it.
Why Gmaj7 G#o7 Am7 and not Am7 Abo7 Gmaj7?
But Am7 Bbo7 Bm7 or Bm7 Bbo7 Am7 both work great.
I'm sure some people will have a reason. I kind of do, although I kind of stop worrying about this kind of stuff.
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"Bothered and Bewitched"
measures 5 -8:
| C/G Ebdim7 | D-7 A7 | D-7 | G7 |
also measures 7 -8 of bridge:
| E-7 Ebdim7 | D-7 G7 |
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Yea... for analysis... it theoretically either relates to the key, the macro approach, traditional functional harmony. Which has defined roles of notes... which results in differences between I and II as compared to II and III etc... the guideline of how different notes and chords react from relationships is based on the key as compared to the micro relationships where the tonal target becomes the Key and of course, throw in different guidelines of how notes react in relationships... Modal relationships... you have a few choices of what function a chord can become.
So the Ebdim7 going to D-7 G7 can be a passing diminished chord, a sub, an inversion or voicing of A7 or whatever other chord you want... is the Ebdim7 the reference or is it a relationship?
I tend to go with Christian... it's basically such a simple relationship and generally it goes buy a million times. That's somewhat the nature of playing jazz... what's possible, you generally don't just perform one way all the time. Very rarely does the chord become a primary reference from which relationships are created and developed... so yea, make a note and move on. I believe understanding what references and relationships are and being aware of how to develop them is much more useful.
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See also Night and Day and Corcovado. Originally Posted by PMB
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Exactly - that's because you've discovered the most common use of dim7s - as leading tone chords. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Call it G#dim7 though.
Look at the A harmonic minor scale, and see what chord you get when you harmonize the vii (leading tone)...
They work commonly as secondary chords too. IOW, the key doesn't have to be A minor. You can lead to any Am (or Am7) with G#dim7 wherever you find it.
This topic was (and still is being) comprehensively covered in this current thread:
How are diminished chords used to connect the I chord and the II chord?
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Why can the diminished chord C sharp diminished go to C major 7?, what is the relationship between the two?. thanks
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Originally Posted by Manuel Crespo
It can be used as a move on one chord.
To expand:
G6
Go (same as C#o)
C6
Play it quickly and rhythmically.
This could be played on C or Am7. Don't think it as 3 separate chords but as a move on a single chord.
Barry calls G6 in the key of C the Sixth On The Fifth.
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To my ears the dom7b9 1/2 step below sounds better than the dim7 chord 1/2 step below when descending. For example:
Amin7 Ab7b9 Gmaj7
sounds better than
Amin7 Abdim7 Gmaj7
IMHO the reason for this is that the II-V7-I of this key is Amin7 D7 Gmaj7 and the Ab7b9 is a tritone sub for the V. It creates voice leading that resolves naturally to the tonic in several voices, with some tension but not too much. But the Abdim7 contains F, B and D which creates the effect of a G7b9; going from Amin to G7 to Gmaj7 does not sound as logical. But a good player could make it work.
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I like the reverse... Ab13#11 being the sub of D7alt.
I generally hear Dim chords as result of not knowing what to play.... so use a filler and camouflage what might be going on harmonically. Yea I basically hate diminished chords... and yea on many gigs I use them as spelled.
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By and large they are often used to provide bass voice leading in particular.
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Essentially they provide chromatic voice-leading in either direction, and in any voice.
1. Leading tone 7th (Bdim7 > C or Cm): root goes up a half-step; 5th and 7th (F, Ab) come down a half-step.
2. Common-tone diminished (Cdim7 > C): 3rd and 5th (Eb-Gb) go up a half-step; dim7 (Bbb) could remain as 6th of C.
3. Passing (chromatic) dim7: C#dim7 > Cm: root and 3rd descend a half-step; 7th (Bb) could descend to the 6th of Cm. (This move is less common to a major chord, because the only essential voice move is the root, with 3rd and 5th as shared tones.)
There is no other way any dim7 can move, because the chord is symmetrical. Eg, Ebdim, F#dim or Adim7 going to C is the same as Cdim7 to C. All expressions of the "CTo7". The common tone doesn't have to be in the bass.
IOW, every use of a dim7 has to be one of the above 3 functions.
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Nice to know the names of these things - I take it that's the classical terminology? Originally Posted by JonR
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AFAIK, yes - at least the "CTo7" is a classical abbreviation of "common tone diminished". Originally Posted by christianm77
Check stevel's post in this thread for a qualified classical viewpoint on the cto7 at least:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/ind...water.1677901/
The "leading tone 7th" term I got from a jazz theory book, but "leading tone" and "vii" are certainly classical terms.
However, I should point out that the author (William Russo) used the term "leading tone 7th" to refer to the vii chord of a major key, the m7b5 chord. This is despite the fact that - as he was surely well aware - m7b5 chords are used almost always as ii chords (supertonics) in minor keys, almost never as vii in major keys. More often a major key will borrow the vii chord from the minor key, the full dim7; which he called simply "diminished 7th" - a name which says nothing about its function. (I guess that's sensible because a dim7 can have three different applications.)
So until I get corrected by a properly trained classical person, I'll continue to call that particular application of a dim7 a "leading tone 7th".
"viio7" is of course also suitable, as well as being shorter and possibly more correct! (The only problem there is verbalising it: "Seven diminished 7th"?)
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