Altered Dominant Sounds in Bebop

[monk]

RonDen,

The paramount thing to remember is that jazz, like every other kind of music, is about playing songs. When you get the Mickey Baker book start at the beginning and learn the lessons on chords and chord movement. Be sure to transpose the examples into the other keys per his suggestions. Once you start getting comfortable with the chords then start applying them to real songs. Start with an easy one like Satin Doll and then, perhaps, Autumn Leaves. Above all, listen to recordings of jazz. Soak your brain and ears in the music.

This link will take you to a site with a list of jazz songs:
Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals Contents

This links to Ralph Patt's Vaniilla Book of basic chord changes:
The Vanilla Book

Regards,
Jerome

[RonDen]

Thank You so much Guys,
Thanks for those links Jerome.
I will spend a lot of time on those.
I must confess, what made me really notice Jazz is this.
About three years ago, I saw a movie on the Turner classic channel,
yes, I love the old black and white movies,
This movie starring the great Jeanne Moreau was called
Elevator to the Gallows (1958) great year, perhaps because it is the year I was born.
There was this background jazzy music by some unknown( to me) musician named Miles Davis.
Well that music, all new to me, stuck and stuck.
And then I discovered other stuff.
Ella Fitzgerald singing My funny valentine.
Although I remembered her from the Memorex commercial late 70's, eighties with the broken champagne glass.
Cheers,
Ronald

[lawson-stone]

That's terribly interesting re: Irish tunes.

Myself, I think in a perfect world everyone would start with a pre war style like trad, swing or Gypsy jazz. The harmonies are simpler and the improvisation and accompaniment techniques are easier to get down.

This and the repertoire of songs makes a fantastic grounding for bebop, and from there on, modern jazz. Bop is an embellishment on swing - modern is an embellishment on bop, but the skeleton is underneath.

(For example - what does Jonathon Kreisberg talk about in his masterclasses and videos? Play a 1 and 5 two feel iin the bass and learn to play the melody over the top in different rhythms as a gateway towards improvisation and rhythmic acuity. That's how jazz started historically... He's giving you the bare bones before the ornamentation.)

I don't think this is how many guitarists learn now. Certainly not how I learned.

It's an interesting thought... that we have to learn something by recapitulating its history in our own practice. Start with swing, blues, etc. move to pre-bop, bop, etc.

It seems natural, but I do wonder about it. For example, we'd never learn a language that way. Someone learning English as a new language would not start off with germanic Anglo-Saxon roots, then weight the impact of the Norman conquest and the french infusion, stirred around until Chaucer's works seemed somehow to formalize Middle English, then along came Shakespeare, translations of Homer, and the King James Bible in the 17th Century...

That is a great way to savor and enjoy elements of language, but I am not sure it is the best way to learn one or to become fluent speaking it. The analogy between language and performing music is, of course, quite imperfect, but when one steps into the stream of an evolving social phenomenon, I don't know how important it is to internalize the earlier stages of the process.

In some human endeavors, such as religion, patriotism, perhaps some forms of visual art, that's a huge factor. I wish I could feel confident music worked like that. Must great players re-trace the steps of the music in order to find their own voice in performing it?

I'm not disagreeing, just wondering out loud.

[mr. beaumont]

I can't speak for others, but moving chronologically, and even stepping backwards at one point and going to django's music--helped immensely in my understanding of what followed.

Jazz is not often linear...but in that sense, it is...each generation built up higher and further out from the foundation.

[matt.guitarteacher]

In some human endeavors, such as religion, patriotism, perhaps some forms of visual art, that's a huge factor. I wish I could feel confident music worked like that. Must great players re-trace the steps of the music in order to find their own voice in performing it?

I'm not disagreeing, just wondering out loud.

Interesting philosophy re. this (see the "tree metaphor"): The Complete Transcription Process | David Liebman

[grahambop]

Thank You so much Guys,
Thanks for those links Jerome.
I will spend a lot of time on those.
I must confess, what made me really notice Jazz is this.
About three years ago, I saw a movie on the Turner classic channel,
yes, I love the old black and white movies,
This movie starring the great Jeanne Moreau was called
Elevator to the Gallows (1958) great year, perhaps because it is the year I was born.
There was this background jazzy music by some unknown( to me) musician named Miles Davis.
Well that music, all new to me, stuck and stuck.
And then I discovered other stuff.
Ella Fitzgerald singing My funny valentine.
Although I remembered her from the Memorex commercial late 70's, eighties with the broken champagne glass.
Cheers,
Ronald

Yes that's how it happens - one day you hear something and you think 'Whatever is that!', then against your better judgement you start exploring some more, and before you know it, you have been sucked into the twilight zone that is JAZZ!

And there's no coming back!

(great film by the way - I've got a copy on video. As you say, Miles' music is so haunting and creates a lot of atmosphere).

[monk]

It's an interesting thought... that we have to learn something by recapitulating its history in our own practice. Start with swing, blues, etc. move to pre-bop, bop, etc.

It seems natural, but I do wonder about it. For example, we'd never learn a language that way. Someone learning English as a new language would not start off with germanic Anglo-Saxon roots, then weight the impact of the Norman conquest and the french infusion, stirred around until Chaucer's works seemed somehow to formalize Middle English, then along came Shakespeare, translations of Homer, and the King James Bible in the 17th Century...

That is a great way to savor and enjoy elements of language, but I am not sure it is the best way to learn one or to become fluent speaking it. The analogy between language and performing music is, of course, quite imperfect, but when one steps into the stream of an evolving social phenomenon, I don't know how important it is to internalize the earlier stages of the process.

In some human endeavors, such as religion, patriotism, perhaps some forms of visual art, that's a huge factor. I wish I could feel confident music worked like that. Must great players re-trace the steps of the music in order to find their own voice in performing it?

I'm not disagreeing, just wondering out loud.

Jerry Coker recounted a story in one of his books concerning pianist Clare Fischer serving as a judge at a college level jazz band competition in the late 1970s. A young saxophonist asked Fischer to critique his playing. Fischer told the young man that in his (Fischer's) opinion the saxophonist's playing would improve considerably if he had deeper roots. The young saxophonist indignantly informed Fischer that "My roots go all the way back to John Coltrane".

The understanding of the history of the music is what informs our playing. A superficial approach will yield superficial results. The best players always have the deepest roots.

The current players who are garnering the most positive praise from fans and critics are the ones who know and understand what went before.

Regards,
Jerome

[grahambop]

I can't speak for others, but moving chronologically, and even stepping backwards at one point and going to django's music--helped immensely in my understanding of what followed.

Jazz is not often linear...but in that sense, it is...each generation built up higher and further out from the foundation.

In practice I suspect many of us become familiar with the music in reverse, to some extent. So I heard 70s fusion stuff first, then I went back to 50s and 60s (Mingus, Miles, Trane), then I listened to 40s Bird and bebop, then I went back to Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins, then Django, then Louis Armstrong etc.

[christianm77]

In practice I suspect many of us become familiar with the music in reverse, to some extent. So I heard 70s fusion stuff first, then I went back to 50s and 60s (Mingus, Miles, Trane), then I listened to 40s Bird and bebop, then I went back to Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins, then Django, then Louis Armstrong etc.

Yup, that's the way it was for me.

[destinytot]

Interesting philosophy re. this (see the "tree metaphor"): The Complete Transcription Process | David Liebman

I like this metaphor for skills development: