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Not sure if you quite catch my drift from your reply.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
This came up in another recent thread. I think of it in far simpler terms: Take any 2-5-1 material and play it over the 2-5-1 in the relative min key. The only note that's "wrong" as you say is the missing raised third against the V in min key. Interesting that you notice Bird often plays the min 3rd (#9??) against V7b9 in a minor key, because I find that sometimes I often like the sound of it- although admittedly I started doing it out of laziness! (not bothering to alter the 3rd).
BTW, in reference to your other thread, here we have just described another of those little secrets I wished I'd been shown when I was younger. These "light bulb" moments should be gathered and stored in a sticky at the top of this forum if we're concerned about people coming to learn from this site. If we don't do this (and we probably won't), then we are indeed guilty of withholding secrets!
Either that, or just guide them to your own posts history, I reckon your posts are the best bang for buck on this site, kudos!
Dm7 G7 Cmaj7
Over which relative minor is
Bm7b5 E7 Am7 (or Ammaj7 if you want to be cool)
Works great. E7 over G7 sounds mega (I ought to play this more actually)
But I am talking about playing
Fmaj7 Bb7 Cmaj7 (i.e. backdoor)
Probably didn't explain it very well.
For extra bonus points, we realise that
Bm7b5 = Dm6 and Dm7 = Fmaj7 (Fmaj7 is a good sub for Bm7b5)
And that
Bb7 on E7 makes - TT sub or E altered scale
So I suppose relative minor/backdoor - IS the same thing really, is that what you meant?
Most of the time, I won't bother with the F, and will play
Bb7 C or Bb7 Bo7 C
Which implies either
Dm7b5 G7(#9b9) C or Dm7b5 G7b9 C
You can always play a minor 2 5 on a major 2 5 so it always works.Last edited by christianm77; 02-05-2016 at 04:53 AM.
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02-05-2016 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yeah, if you think of the m3rd matrix, the G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7 pretty much covers a lot of the altered Dom options, where you can think of the E7 and it's TTsub Bb7 coming from rel minor, but I suppose you don't necessarily get much benefit seeing that way. I actually have also started messing with the m3rd matrix starting on Bm7b5, so Dm7b5 and Fm7b5.
Been meaning to get around to mixing both matrixes, so imagine 2 columns:
Bm7b5 ............. Bb7
Dm7b5 ............. Db7
Fm7b5 .............. E7
You go from any chord in the 1st column to any chord in the 2nd column, (or even reverse columns? or even jump to another chord from same column....).
Or the full matrix:
Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)Last edited by princeplanet; 02-05-2016 at 09:02 AM.
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a big part of the charm and usability of these three min6 sounds is that they're all the same just in different places relative to the home chord
that is not to say that the same sound will work slightly differently starting on the 5th (dm6 with #7 in C) on the 4th (Fm6 with #7) and on the sharp 5 (Abm6 with #7)
i do like some of the detail captured by C77 (the m6 on the 4th is pretty pre-war - and it has an elegance or sophistication or softness that the standard 5-1 cadence lacks)
the important historical point is perhaps that the boppers worked very hard on the straight dominant sound. barry harris' soloing 'rules' - which are rules for adding 1,2 or 3 extra notes to a standard 7 note scale - are all thought of as applying to a straight dominant sound.
but this doesn't really mean anything because dm6 just is G7 and Abm6 just is Db7 and Fm6 just is Bb7 - so you could think of all these min6 sounds in terms of the dominant sounds they are paired with.
its better to say that the min6 and the dom sound are the same sound just heard from a different root (or something) - than to say they are 2 closely related sounds - i think.)
pleased that people have responded positively to my initial suggestion on this thread
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I don't understand your use of the term matrix. Originally Posted by princeplanet
TBH my thinking is - IVm sounds wicked over V7b9! And that's it, really. When you start digging, you see patterns... Sure you can also look at it as a iim7b5. So in a sense you are playing ii-I rather than ii-V-I or V-I.
You can view it in whatever way makes it easiest for you. I think there is value in looking at things from different angles... Sooner or later you are going to realise there is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. :-P
But what will really bake your noodle is the major third "matrix" for dominants.
G7+ --> B7+ (my favourite dominant) --> Eb7+ ---> Cmaj7
Now go play with that and get back to me ;-) Down the rabbit hole... The Fats Waller/John Coltrane connection....
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that's a good way to be. There's a difference between playing 20 years and playing the same year 20 times is what the old guys always said Originally Posted by christianm77
keep pushing yourself out there into uncharted waters and chart 'em!
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For sure, there's knowing the path, then walking it, then realising what your favourite paths are and putting them to use. It's a lifetime pursuit, I'm in no hurry- so long as I take time to smell the roses along the way from time to time... Originally Posted by christianm77
Never been a fan of the sound of the Coltrane subs in my own playing, but i dig it in other's, so maybe farther on up the road...Last edited by princeplanet; 02-06-2016 at 01:25 AM.
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Actually. I think I conceive it not as Dm6, nor Bm7b5, but as a rootless G9, given that I like to relate all these chords to V. If I'm thinking of the note' 'b' against this chord I'm thinking 3rd of G9, not 6th of Dm. Of course, I'm still thinking of the m7b5 drop 2 chord "shape", which I'd rather not do. Originally Posted by christianm77
I mean. if I want a V7b9b13 in key of C, then I'm probably seeing the Fm7b5 shape, but I'd rather cut out the middle man and think of it immediately as a rootless G7b9b13. Time will tell if I can shake the habit...
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
To be more specific with my question: Because the MM raises the 7th compared to Dorian, against Dm6 you have a C# in place of the C, against Fm6 an E instead of an Eb and against Am6 you have an added G as opposed to the Dorian's F#. In the last case the F# will probably not sound as useable as the G, granted, but against Dm6 you have a #11 in place of plain 11th. and against Fm6 a 13th in place of a b13th.
As someone who doesn't think in scales (didn't the beboppers also think chord tones?), why do you seem convinced the boppers thought in MM and not Dorian against these subs? You sound like you've transcribed more bop era stuff than I have, do you really see the MM being used, or could it be confused with just "chord tones with passing tones in between"? Was MM minor that big a deal in their thinking?
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Not in my wildest dreams can I imagine Charlie Christian or Wes talking or thinking about modes of the melodic minor scale, or for that matter modes at all. Can you one of them saying, "yeah, there I used the Locrian #2 scale"
This thinking may describe their playing, but gets in the way of learning the sounds in our ears, heads and hands.Last edited by boatheelmusic; 02-06-2016 at 09:08 AM.
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TBH I was just trying to cram in Matrix references there. I don't think it got spotted... Originally Posted by princeplanet
The maj 3rd cycle of dominants is not in fact a Coltrane thing.
It's quite common in jazz standards to come across the cadence I-VII7-I (Whispering/Groovin' High, I Remember You etc) - this cadence is derived (I think from I-V7+5-I) so that suggest a whole maj 3rd cycle...
Imagine my delight when I found that VII7-I always sounds great. You can do it whenever.
Now the bIII7-I is a bit more unusual, but can work really well.
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Increasingly that's the way I view it too, under the influence of Barry Harris. For example, you play G7 under a Bm7b5, etc... Originally Posted by princeplanet
Although BH also views it as a minor 6 too.
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boatheelmusic: if you are addressing the original post then i must say this:
to say they thought about all the altered sounds in terms of three m6 chords (Dm6/Abm6/Fm6 in C)
is not to say anything at all about 'modes' of the minor 6 sound. i don't think that's part of it at all - the whole point was to hazard a guess about the way the actual guys actually thought about it (to the extent that they thought about it at all).
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If I get this right
A jazz guitarist is suppose to know all of this by rote?
Well, I'm not that bright.
I am just learning to learn basic jazz and it is already confusing.
Ronald
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Originally Posted by RonDen
hi ronald
this SOUNDS complicated i'm sure - but the whole point of it is to SIMPLIFY the harmony so its easy to grasp (and that's not 'learn by rote' its 'dig')
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03-26-2016, 06:13 AM #40destinytot GuestI'm not sure it has to be memorised that way (unless it 'speaks' to you, and you feel you just 'have to' memorise it - so you can use it at will). Originally Posted by RonDen
Please don't be put off by names and ideas, which are only labels and ingredients - and which needn't be thought about at all (unless you're curious).
But, unless you know the fretboard well, it's easier to understand all of this when looked at on a keyboard.
You CAN do it - and don't allow yourself to be fooled into thinking otherwise. 'Empty vessels make the most noise.'Last edited by destinytot; 03-26-2016 at 07:59 AM.
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Just learn the tunes. Originally Posted by RonDen
1. Melody first.
2. Then chord arpeggios - that's easy for a guitarist, they're already under your fingers; harder for horn players.
3. For improvisation, embellish the melody. That means play around with it. Push and pull the phrasing; omit a note or two, add a note or two. Notice how it follows the chord tones (you did notice that, right?
), so you can try following other chord tones, taking another route through them. (Follow the voice-leading.)
4. Remember you can always insert a chromatic note between any diatonic notes, especially if the next note (half-step above or below) is a chord tone.
5. Sometimes it sounds good to accent those chromatics, for a more edgy or bluesy sound.
6. Think rhythm and phrasing before you think notes. Think like a singer or horn player, and leave breathing spaces.
This all comes from playing the tunes and experimenting. And of course listening to lots of jazz so you pick up the language - the style, the accent, the attitude.
No theoretical knowledge is required; it can help, but you don't need it. (In fact it can also hinder, if it makes you think too much.) Often the theory is no more than fancy terms for very simple practices.
I'll bet this is how all the old jazz masters learned their craft. Playing tunes, trial and error, often on the bandstand. What Hal Galper calls the "apprenticeship scheme" - young beginners playing with (and getting tips from) the old masters.
It takes years of course - but you're always playing music, not reading books (except songbooks...).
It's when you've been through all that, and you're totally comfortable with all those practical principles, that you might start getting interested in deeper theoretical alternatives. Things like chord substitution, melodic minor harmony, re-harmonization, etc. You don't start with that stuff!Last edited by JonR; 03-26-2016 at 07:27 AM.
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This is a very good description of how I learned. For years I didn't look at a single book, except for the Joe Pass chord book. Also this was pre-Internet, so I didn't have access to any written material such as all the online lessons and transcriptions you can get now. Originally Posted by JonR
Just learn the tunes.
1. Melody first.
2. Then chord arpeggios - that's easy for a guitarist, they're already under your fingers; harder for horn players.
3. For improvisation, embellish the melody. That means play around with it. Push and pull the phrasing; omit a note or two, add a note or two. Notice how it follows the chord tones (you did notice that, right?), so you can try following other chord tones, taking another route through them. (Follow the voice-leading.)
4. Remember you can always insert a chromatic note between any diatonic notes, especially if the next note (half-step above or below) is a chord tone.
5. Sometimes it sounds good to accent those chromatics, for a more edgy or bluesy sound.
6. Think rhythm and phrasing before you think notes. Think like a singer or horn player, and leave breathing spaces.
This all comes from playing the tunes and experimenting. And of course listening to lots of jazz so you pick up the language - the style, the accent, the attitude.
No theoretical knowledge is required; it can help, but you don't need it. (In fact it can also hinder, if it makes you think too much.) Often the theory is no more than fancy terms for very simple practices.
I'll bet this is how all the old jazz masters learned their craft. Playing tunes, trial and error, often on the bandstand. What Hal Galper calls the "apprenticeship scheme" - young beginners playing with (and getting tips from) the old masters.
It takes years of course - but you're always playing music, not reading books (except songbooks...).
It's when you've been through all that, and you're totally comfortable with all those practical principles, that you might start getting interested in deeper theoretical alternatives. Things like chord substitution, melodic minor harmony, re-harmonization, etc. You don't start with that stuff!
I didn't even know there was such a thing as the Real book etc. so I used to figure out the chord changes of tunes by ear from recordings, and write them out in my own 'Fakebook'.Last edited by grahambop; 03-26-2016 at 08:47 AM.
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Ah......
Thanks for all your input.
What would be nice to eventually know is this..
Whatever sound that I find and play on the board, I could find a name for it.
And, whatever finger I move from that chord, I would know the new name form this change.
Right now, half diminish this diminish that, augmented 5,6,7 on and on.
Where do you learn all this stuff.
About JonR's post...
Start with melody notes and chord aprpegios.
Yeah, that makes sense. It is basically crawl before you walk and walk before you run.
When I was learning the Irish Anglo concertina ( which I love and am still learning),
A professional player told me that Irish tunes are learned by knowing the basic bare bone melody.
Only when you know the melody well do you start applying , gracenotes, double cuts , rolls etc...
I suppose the same applies to jazz except that those ( ornamentation) become diminish this augmented....
He also told me that when you hear Irish musician play some fancy stuff it is not really improve... they have played these runs and ornaments before and they know in which context they can be applied, dazzling the crowd.
I suppose the same thing may be said about jazz, they improvise, but they also know where they are and what can and may not be done. But this is definitely not easy. A lot of work was done to get to that point.
Thanks for the info and encouragement
and don't be shy
RonaldLast edited by RonDen; 03-26-2016 at 10:50 AM.
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Exactly. Originally Posted by RonDen
But that's just academic theory-speak. Those professors have similar terms for all the things Irish improvisers do. Originally Posted by RonDen
Again, exactly right. They certainly "improvise" (play off the cuff) some of the time, but other times they'll be using "licks" - things they've played before that they know will fit. Originally Posted by RonDen
Of course, jazz improvisation sounds different from Irish improvisation! And admittedly a lot of that is down to the greater harmonic complexity in most jazz. Jazz players DO need a deeper and more extensive understanding of harmony than an Irish fiddle or whistle player needs.
But otherwise the differences are pseudo-linguistic ones: a lot of the musical "language" is shared (keys, modes, form, melodic phrasing, etc), but the dialect, the accent, is different. That's something you have to get by ear. (Looking at a transcribed Charlie Parker solo only gives you the notes, and the approximate timing. You don't get the accents, the swing, the whole feel of the thing - all the stuff that actually makes it sound like "jazz".)
Right. Just try not to think of it as "work". It's "play". Originally Posted by RonDen
Say ten years before you start to really know what you're doing. But it's ten years of fun.
It may be tough, but if you think its a chore, you're doing it wrong.
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That's terribly interesting re: Irish tunes. Originally Posted by RonDen
Myself, I think in a perfect world everyone would start with a pre war style like trad, swing or Gypsy jazz. The harmonies are simpler and the improvisation and accompaniment techniques are easier to get down.
This and the repertoire of songs makes a fantastic grounding for bebop, and from there on, modern jazz. Bop is an embellishment on swing - modern is an embellishment on bop, but the skeleton is underneath.
(For example - what does Jonathon Kreisberg talk about in his masterclasses and videos? Play a 1 and 5 two feel iin the bass and learn to play the melody over the top in different rhythms as a gateway towards improvisation and rhythmic acuity. That's how jazz started historically... He's giving you the bare bones before the ornamentation.)
I don't think this is how many guitarists learn now. Certainly not how I learned.
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At the risk of sounding dumb,
what exactly is harmony..
bass sounds mixed with treble sounds, counterpoint....?
Ronald
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony Originally Posted by RonDen
I think you need to know at least the basics of this stuff to start learning to play jazz. i.e. what is a minor 3rd, a major 3rd, a 5th, a 7th for starters.
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So, harmony is basically two notes of different pitch.
When singers sing in harmony, like those barbershop trio I always thought that it meant singing in different octaves.
but it is basically notes of different pitch?
I think? from what I read in the wiki that you wrote down.
Ronald
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Chords are harmony. The harmony of a song is the chord progression. Originally Posted by RonDen
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Yes. Can you play simple chords on the guitar such as E or G? If so, you are playing harmonies because there is more than one note and they form recognised intervals which create the chord. Originally Posted by RonDen
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