Question from Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony

[DaveK]

Hi, I wonder if someone can explain something that's written in Joe Mulholland The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony.

This comes from p69-70, the section 'Chord Scales for Related II Chords'.

The author is talking about the E-7 chord in the key of C. He says that the chord scale for this is E Phrygian.

All fine and good.

Then he has the following chord progression:
C maj7 D-7 E-7 A7 D-7 G7 C6

Here the E-7 is the related ii of V7/II.

He says that you can use the diatonic chord scale of E Phrygian.

Then, the author explains that "Another possibility is to treat E-7 as a related II by employing an Aeolian chord scale."

My questions is...why?

How is playing Aeolian treating the E-7 as a related ii??

The stuff he says on the following page makes more sense to me.

"the related IIs of V7/IV and V7/V are often expressed with a Dorian chord scale, reflecting a typical major key ii-7 sound...related iis of minor chords are typically -7b5 in quality. VII-7b5 is the basic reference for that sound, with its diatonic Locrian chord scale."

So, ii of a major key is Dorian. ii of a minor key is Locrian. That makes sense.

So why the Aeolian??

The only thing I can think is that he was giving an example of a minor mode that includes non-diatonic notes as an example of how you don't need to stick to diatonic notes when the related iis of secondary dominants are played.

Am I missing something??

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I agree with you. E Dorian over the E-7 in the E-7 A7 is a classic sound. E Aeolian (with its C nat) falls between two stools; it's neither sticking to C major nor leading to A7.

[docbop]

I agree with you. E Dorian over the E-7 in the E-7 A7 is a classic sound. E Aeolian (with its C nat) falls between two stools; it's neither sticking to C major nor leading to A7.

E Aeolian is giving your the F# for the C Lydian sound. They're all just possibilities for a II V7 of II. I think the Berklee thing is to draw a line to show it not just a V7/II that it's a II V7 of II.

[Vladan]

Maybe it's not good enough for you people who preffer classic Jazz sound. To my ears, though, that C sound quite good over A7. One could argue it's classic blues sound.

[christianm77]

Beats me.

E Dorian over the iii7 VI7 - I always used to think the sounded like ass anytime I did it (usually be accident.) Not sure why. Perhaps the major over minor thing is too much?

I bet Charlie Christian could have gotten away with it though.

The ii chord is minor, so the iii7 VI7 should be a minor ii-V-I by default. Bebop thinking, I guess, but it sounds right to me.

[docbop]

Beats me.

E Dorian over the iii7 VI7 - I always used to think the sounded like ass anytime I did it (usually be accident.) Not sure why. Perhaps the major over minor thing is too much?

I bet Charlie Christian could have gotten away with it though.

The ii chord is minor, so the iii7 VI7 should be a minor ii-V-I by default. Bebop thinking, I guess, but it sounds right to me.

A Bopper might be more inclined to make it dominant cycle back to II.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If it were written Em7b5 A7alt Dm7 G7 that would be different, eh?

[Vladan]

If I was to think about it in "theory" way, progression as written in OP is as much in C as it is in G, as it is in D, all majors. It's all up to composer to decide where and when to switch from one into another, or to melodic minor, or whatever,. So, depending on line you played over Cmaj7 and dm7, you'll decide how to treat em7, as being from C, D, or G, consequently, how to treat A7. But that's all pretty much BS IMO. What really happens, you play and feel if you'd rather go repetitive, diatonic, blues, exotic ..., and hopefully can find those sounds on guitar.

[jonasfixe]

I think it is quite simple:

If D7 is a secondary dominant (leading to G, then probably back to C), then D7 is mixolydian or V of G. Then E would be VI, or aeolian!

Playing E aeolian makes you feel D7 secondary dominant, that should resolve to the main dominant G.

[DaveK]

Hi jonasfixe.

D-7 means D minor 7th chord.

So, it's not functioning as a secondary dominant. It's actually functioning as the ii chord of the key.

In the book itself, the author notates the E-7 as being the related ii of the A7, which is the secondary dominant V/ii.

[jonasfixe]

Thanks for the clarification DaveK. I am certainly out of context because I don't know the book, but if I saw a Aeolian mode played over a third degree, the closest harmony I could think of would be II 7, meaning a V/V. Of course it may not be the case, as you pointed.

[Reg]

Think Blue note. Or basic modal interchange... E- or just E can basically become anything... as long as there is organization. The C is very standard Blue Note harmony over secondary doms. Eventually you'll get past the functional basics. I'm not trying to down play the basics... but they just become one of many references for organizing harmony. And when your talking about a very, very typical chord pattern.... Generally down the line... every chord can become a tonal target...

The D- can become a I chord... in a micro tonal target world. And isn't it standard to use altered V7 chords to create dominant function to a minor chord. A7#9b13 to D-.

Jazz standards use borrowed harmony, a classical Maj/Min functional term... and modal interchange, a jazz common practice term for expanded applications of basically the same function...

When you think or hear min... it's usually in a Tonic type of function which typically used V7 chords to establish, and also typically altered... or the chord has subdominant function... can basically go anywhere depending on context. With jazz harmony... minor chords can also be part of chord patterns.... II- V's or I VI II V and any of the minor chords can be modally interchanges to have any extensions or in scale terms...any scale as source for notes.

Minor chords can also have dominant like function... but now we're getting into modal harmony.

[Vladan]

@ Reg

LOL, guess I was trying to say something on those lines, only I was saying it n an ignorant manner. Really, Reg, with each one post of yours I think I learn something, or get a new idea, or have an old one clarified. Even if at first glance it may look like same old story, it is not. I mean, you can not repeat it enough for dummies like my self. So good to have you around. Cheers and all the best in this New year.

[christianm77]

A Bopper might be more inclined to make it dominant cycle back to II.

I'm not sure if I understand. Could you give an example in C major?

[christianm77]

If it were written Em7b5 A7alt Dm7 G7 that would be different, eh?

You can always make a regular ii-V into a minor ii-V, pretty much.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

You can always make a regular ii-V into a minor ii-V, pretty much.

For sure. I'm assuming that we're talking about Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 as written. If we're going to tweak it, that would be noted in the analysis.

[docbop]

You can always make a regular ii-V into a minor ii-V, pretty much.

Take the one being talked about Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 just change it to E7 A7 Dm7 G7. Then it's just back cycling to the II chord. As I was taught early on in Jazz minor7 can always be changed to dominant 7's.

[christianm77]

Take the one being talked about Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 just change it to E7 A7 Dm7 G7. Then it's just back cycling to the II chord. As I was taught early on in Jazz minor7 can always be changed to dominant 7's.

I've not seen that much if at all in the bop stuff I've transcribed thus far. The harmony completely makes sense. It is in effect how bop walking basslines work.

If anything I would think of backcycling dominants as being quite a swing era sound... All of Me, Lulu's Back in Town, etc.

[christianm77]

For sure. I'm assuming that we're talking about Em7 A7 Dm7 G7 as written. If we're going to tweak it, that would be noted in the analysis.

I don't think the Em7b5 A7b9 Dm7 G7 thing has much to do with original question TBH :-)

Just raising a possibility here - could it be a misprint?

I'm not saying that E aeolian wouldn't work, but it seems a little 'non-standard' for a ii chord. But then the phrygian thing is quite odd as well.

Reg is probably your man on this TBH.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm not saying that E aeolian wouldn't work, but it seems a little 'non-standard' for a ii chord. But then the phrygian thing is quite odd as well.

I wouldn't say odd. The progression was:

CMaj7 D-7 E-7 A7 D-7 G7 C6

You can just ride C major over all of CMaj7 D-7 E-7 -- there's that so-called E phrygian.

Then you change gears when you hit the A7.

That's certainly one option.

[christianm77]

I wouldn't say odd. The progression was:

CMaj7 D-7 E-7 A7 D-7 G7 C6

You can just ride C major over all of CMaj7 D-7 E-7 -- there's that so-called E phrygian.

Then you change gears when you hit the A7.

That's certainly one option.

OK. I thought the E phrygian was specifically over E-7 A7. That makes more sense.

I would describe that as playing in C major... Perhaps there is an advantage in playing E phrygian instead (less of a tendency to emphasise the root maybe?)

[Tag101]

Minor7s can almost always be viewed as Dom 7 chords. You add the major third to a minor 7 and you get a dom7#9 chord. Your ear just has to learn to hear it. Its done all the time in bop. Its a trick Benson used all the time on his very early recordings. He played II-V-Is as V-V-Is all the time, and altered both heavily. It drove me nuts early on because I was transcribing and just dropping the II chord and thinking V-I. (Disregarding the II chord which is done a lot as well) What happens is in the key of C, changing the -7 II chord to a Dom 7 gives you the F# note. Thats the Maj 7 of the V7 (G7) and supposedly thats a no no over a Dom 7 chord. It yook me a while to realize what he was actually doing! Then, I realized he also played B Maj 7 arps over G7 which gives you that F# as well. Thats the old rule "play a maj 7 arp down a whole step from a dom 7 chord" rule, using it off the tritone sub of G7. (C#7) Going back, this is why you cant really use modes or scales more than for a very loose reference. They dont really apply in jazz. That III chord can be heard as a tonic chord in C, (WHY think of Phrygian???)....or a -7b5, or a -7, or a Dom7 for starters. Transcribe and see wbat tbe masters do. They play off melodic lines and phrases that utilize all of the above. Much of the time superimposing II-Vs over any tonic chord, or leading into, or away from Dom chords. Scales and modes are a huge hang up. Dont base what you play on them, and do NOT practice them anymore than to have a basic understanding of them. Learn lines, lines, and more lines. Grab them from Benson, Grant Green, Wes, Django, Jackie McClean, Sonny Stitt, Donald Byrd, Lee Morgan, Dexter Gordan, etc etc etc. You will see (hear) exactly that.

.

[christianm77]

Minor7s can almost always be viewed as Dom 7 chords. You add the major third to a minor 7 and you get a dom7#9 chord. Your ear just has to learn to hear it. Its done all the time in bop. Its a trick Benson used all the time on his very early recordings. He played II-V-Is as V-V-Is all the time, and altered both heavily. It drove me nuts early on because I was transcribing and just dropping the II chord and thinking V-I. (Disregarding the II chord which is done a lot as well) What happens is in the key of C, changing the -7 II chord to a Dom 7 gives you the F# note. Thats the Maj 7 of the V7 (G7) and supposedly thats a no no over a Dom 7 chord. It yook me a while to realize what he was actually doing! Then, I realized he also played B Maj 7 arps over G7 which gives you that F# as well. Thats the old rule "play a maj 7 arp down a whole step from a dom 7 chord" rule, using it off the tritone sub of G7. (C#7) Going back, this is why you cant really use modes or scales more than for a very loose reference. They dont really apply in jazz. That III chord can be heard as a tonic chord in C, (WHY think of Phrygian???)....or a -7b5, or a -7, or a Dom7 for starters. Transcribe and see wbat tbe masters do. They play off melodic lines and phrases that utilize all of the above. Much of the time superimposing II-Vs over any tonic chord, or leading into, or away from Dom chords. Scales and modes are a huge hang up. Dont base what you play on them, and do NOT practice them anymore than to have a basic understanding of them. Learn lines, lines, and more lines. Grab them from Benson, Grant Green, Wes, Django, Jackie McClean, Sonny Stitt, Donald Byrd, Lee Morgan, Dexter Gordan, etc etc etc. You will see (hear) exactly that.

.

Paragraph breaks would aid readability. I think you make a good point, and what you say sounds similar to my approach as we have discussed on the T/D thread... (With the difference that I favour looking at it from the tonic/subdom point of view - but in practice it makes no difference as all those functions are the same.)

[Tag101]

Sorry about the lack of paragraphs. When i post from my phone, for some reason it will not function at times.