Chord Substitutions

**Jive Turkey** · 05-31-2009, 02:26 PM

I rarely have anything to say here, but I do read all these threads and I do learn from what you alls write.

On the other hand, half of the time I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Since I started, I've done almost nothing but blues and I know some theory. I can do the fundamental stuff like transpose, spell out chords, that sort of thing, but I got lost reading a lot of these threads.

So here's my first question. Maybe it's a stupid one, but here it is anyway.

What is a chord substitution?

Maybe, if it's easier, you can direct me to another thread or a lesson you guys use. Free stuff would, of course, be the most desirable, but I'd be willing to buy books if I have to.

-Paul

**derek** · 05-31-2009, 03:38 PM

Good question. Instead of playing the chord as written, we have the liberty to play a sub. We typically start out with diatonic subs (within the key), and it can get further out from there. The idea is to come up with subs that create new colors, and interesting leading.

Diatonic subs such as using Em7 for a Cmaj7, which yields a rootless Cmaj9, or Am7 for a Cmaj7, which yields a rootless Cmaj6, etc. Hope that makes sense.

**Paul J Edwards** · 05-31-2009, 06:13 PM

Since you are into the blues here is a small but practical use of substitutions.

First 5 bars of a blues.

G7\ C7\ G7\ G7\ C7\

Now you can use a ii V I progression for the 4th bar. This is a simple cadence that leads to the C7.

So now you have G7\C7\G7\Dm7 G7\C7
Not much of a change here. But... Are you aware that the 3rd and 7th of a chord defines what it is ie Major, Minor, Dom. In fact all you really need to do while comping is to play these two notes. Now here is a sub rule. the 3 and 7 of a I7 chord is the same as the 1 and 7 of the dom7th chord a diminshed 5th higher. So a dim 5th or 3 whole tones (6 frets) higher than a G is a Db.
A G7 has the same 3 and 7 as a Db7 So.... you can substitute a Db7 for a G7.

So now our progression becomes.

G7\C7\G7\Dm7- Db7\C7

Now that sounds cool because of the chromatic movement of the roots of these substituted chords. D Db C
You can do this in other places not only blues tunes but almost any Jazz standard.

In fact you use these rules while doing a solo as well. I am still learning and trying to apply this on the fly but thats where the woodshedding comes in.

**Sailor** · 05-31-2009, 10:56 PM

Great timing! I just spent a couple hours going over the 6 part JOE PASS instructional video on YOUTUBE. Easy to find, 1-6.

What a great job he does explaining and showing a I-vi-ii-V progression in C and all the subs that come out of it! Great fun and he is SO cool to listen to , watch, and play along with.

Good luck. Also buy some jazz books...Jodie Fisher etc.........

Sailor

**jonasfixe** · 06-01-2009, 06:08 AM

Hey, check out this article on substitutions. It's not very easy, but I think you'll get an idea, because it lists alll kinds of subsitutions with examples, and it's not too long!

Chord Substitution - Guitar Noise

Hope it helps

Joao Pedro

**Jive Turkey** · 06-01-2009, 11:43 AM

Thanks at you all.

Here's a question for you alls about something I've been doing.

Here's part of a regular blues progression.

C \ C \ C\ C7 \ F

Sometimes, I play

C \ C \ C \ C#13 \ F

I just spelled this out, and not that I look at it, it's totally dissonant, but the Bb (the dom7 to the C) is the same in both the C7 and the C#13 so it seems to serve the same purpose as playing a C7.

Is this an example of a substitution, or am I just playing something completely outlandish and dissonant?

**FatJeff** · 06-01-2009, 12:00 PM

I don't think this is a substitution per-se, since the underlying chord is the same root and quality (dominant). It's called an 'extension'.

In both cases, the dominant chord (C7 or C13) acts as the "V of IV". The note F is the 4th scale degree of the C major scale, so the F chord is "IV". If you go up a perfect fifth from IV (F) you get I (C)....and making it dominant (by adding in the flatted 7th, Bb in this case) makes its pull down to F even stronger. Not sure if I'm explaining this very well.

The way I think of it is this: if you see a I chord that is dominant (I7), you're almost guaranteed that the next chord is going to be IV.

**instasian** · 06-01-2009, 02:14 PM

Jonasfixe, thank you for the article on Chord Substitutions. I get the concept but this I feel will really help my in expanding my knowledge.

Thanks,
Jeff

**Jive Turkey** · 06-01-2009, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

I don't think this is a substitution per-se, since the underlying chord is the same root and quality (dominant). It's called an 'extension'.

I understand that they're both dominant, but how do C#13 and C7 have the same root? Of course, it's perfectly plausible that I'm writing the chord wrong.

What I mean to ask is-

Does the chord C# B F Bb (C#13)

serve as a substitute for

C E G Bb (C7)?

The reason I thought it's a substitute is because the Bb in the C#13 is dominant when played after the C chord, but the Bb is the only note shared between the C and the C#13.

**FatJeff** · 06-01-2009, 06:09 PM

I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were saying "C with a sharp thirteen" (which doesn't even exist, but I thought you were confused). Instead you are saying "C Sharp with a (natural) thirteen", which pretty much invalidates everything I said. So clearly I was the one who was confused. :-)

**JohnW400** · 06-01-2009, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Of course, it's perfectly plausible that I'm writing the chord wrong.

What I mean to ask is-

Does the chord C# B F Bb (C#13)

serve as a substitute for

C E G Bb (C7)?

.

Just a bit of constructive criticsm.

In a C#13 The F is E# and the Bb is A#. Yes, they sound the same but they don't functon the same way in the Key of F#

It's good practice to call the notes by what they are relative to the chord your talking about. It also makes sight reading chords much easier.

**FatJeff** · 06-01-2009, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Of course, it's perfectly plausible that I'm writing the chord wrong.

How about this: could you just spell out here what strings and frets you are playing? That might help us figure out what this chord really is.

**Paul J Edwards** · 06-01-2009, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I understand that they're both dominant, but how do C#13 and C7 have the same root? Of course, it's perfectly plausible that I'm writing the chord wrong.

What I mean to ask is-

Does the chord C# B F Bb (C#13)

serve as a substitute for

C E G Bb (C7)?

The reason I thought it's a substitute is because the Bb in the C#13 is dominant when played after the C chord, but the Bb is the only note shared between the C and the C#13.

No.
C#13 is C# E# G# B A#
is in no way related to C7
C E G Bb

**Sailor** · 06-01-2009, 09:45 PM

I just saw Joe Pass play this sub/extension for a I-vi-ii-V-I in C.

CM7 - Am7 - Dm7- G7

C6/9 - Am9 - Dm11 - G13

Em7 - A7#5,9?- D9 - G7#5

E7#9 - A13 - D7#9 - G7.....something like that.

I've concluded that E7#9 is like a Bb13, so Bb13 can sub for a I chord, in C?

Em is a sub for C, E7#9 is a sub for Em, Bb13 is a tritone sub for E7, so Bb13 is a sub for C.

Am I correct in this????

If so I'm finally getting this.

Sailor

**Paul J Edwards** · 06-01-2009, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sailor

I just saw Joe Pass play this sub/extension for a I-vi-ii-V-I in C.

CM7 - Am7 - Dm7- G7

C6/9 - Am9 - Dm11 - G13

Em7 - A7#5,9?- D9 - G7#5

E7#9 - A13 - D7#9 - G7.....something like that.

I've concluded that E7#9 is like a Bb13, so Bb13 can sub for a I chord, in C?

Em is a sub for C, E7#9 is a sub for Em, Bb13 is a tritone sub for E7, so Bb13 is a sub for C.

Am I correct in this????

If so I'm finally getting this.

Sailor

I have to think that this is logical but hot damn.

I can see how you get from C to Em to E7 to Bb7 but I certainly would not start a tune where the first chord was a Cmaj with a Bb7.

I must be square and way unhip!

**Sailor** · 06-01-2009, 10:06 PM

Not square or unhip! I'm not even sure about this but after years of rock and classical it's cool to think you can play Bb13 instead of C. (not in the beginning of the song)

Couldn't have been further from the way I used to think about music.

Sailor

**Paul J Edwards** · 06-01-2009, 10:13 PM

You know in some ways when you solo I think you can use any note as long as you resolve the tension.

Leave if to the academics to figure out what you are doing.

**bako** · 06-02-2009, 12:14 AM

CM7 - Am7 - Dm7- G7

C6/9 - Am9 - Dm11 - G13

Em7 - A7#5,9?- D9 - G7#5

E7#9 - A13 - D7#9 - G7

These are all alternate turnarounds. In this context the Bb13 can be a sub

Bb13 - A7#5 - D9 - G7#5

The Bb13 is not a sub for C major functioning as a I chord but as part of a cyclical motion back to the I chord.

If I was going to use a Bb dominant in place of a C major tonic I would probably use Bb13/9/#11 which includes the C major triad.
Bb D F Ab C E G

**jonasfixe** · 06-02-2009, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by instasian

Jonasfixe, thank you for the article on Chord Substitutions. I get the concept but this I feel will really help my in expanding my knowledge.

Thanks,
Jeff

You're wellcome. Remember it's always better to spend some time on one single concept (one type of sub, in this case) until we really feel it, than to memorize all of them without applying!

**jonasfixe** · 06-02-2009, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

What I mean to ask is-

Does the chord C# B F Bb (C#13)

serve as a substitute for

C E G Bb (C7)?

Jive Turkey, I'll give it a try

It seems like you are using a form of an altered dominant to C7, with some extra tension:
If you look to the C# 13 chord tones (C#, E#, B, A#) in relation to the C you will find that:
-C# is a b9 (Db), which is quite common for a dominant
-E# (F) is a sus4, Also common for a dominant
-B is quite off; I don't see any explanation except as a passing cromatic tone, leading to the C in F chord
-A# (Bb) is the 7, a must have for a dominant chord!

**Joe Dalton** · 06-02-2009, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sailor

Em7 - A7#5,9?- D9 - G7#5

E7#9 - A13 - D7#9 - G7.....something like that.

Sailor

The Em7 is still a sub of the C though in this context I'd say it serves as a 2 5 the E7 is more of a dominant to A then a sub for C The Bb7 would serve as a tritone to the A so still a dominant on the A not sub for C

**timscarey** · 06-02-2009, 09:43 PM

two things....

Look at the melody notes. Harmonize them. That is one way to think about it. This works well for an arrangment or reharm where you are playing the same changes throughout. Using this school of thought Bb7 could totally sub for a Cmaj7 even at the beginning of a tune if the melody had..

C, D, E, and/or G for the duration of that chord.

Also,
most of the time, at least in my experience, subs happen one of two ways...

1. The bass player plays a different note under the guitarists chord, (i.e. Tritone subs, making a minor a sus chord, 3rd in the bass, 6 in the bass for Major)

2. The guitarist changes the quality of the chord while the bass player plays the expected note. (i.e. Dom to sus, min to min maj7, and all different kinds of altered dominants)

I feel like doing too many extreme subs(straight up changing the chord) in the middle of a tune doesn't go over well in an ensamble situation, mostly because everyone has sort of a preconcieved notion of what is going to be happening and if an unexpected tonal center is presented, it messes with people.

subs I see regularly include....

F#min7b5 for Cmaj7 (tritone sub)
F#7 for C7 (tritone sub)
A minor or E minor for C maj7 (3rd or 6th in the bass)
all secondary doms. D7, E7, A7 for the minor chords in the key of C (quality change, same root)
CMaj7 to C maj7/D (bass player makes a sus chord)
D7 to D/C (inversion, but really sounds different than the original chord)

Next time you play Autumn leaves try (EbMaj7.... D/C.... Gmin..........) for the first 4 bars of the B section

Chord substitutions while soloing in 8th notes however..... just do whatever you want and resolve it to the chord that is happening at the end of the phrase. Major triads work really well for going "out"

**Joe Dalton** · 06-03-2009, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by timscarey

two things....

Look at the melody notes. Harmonize them. That is one way to think about it. This works well for an arrangment or reharm where you are playing the same changes throughout. Using this school of thought Bb7 could totally sub for a Cmaj7 even at the beginning of a tune if the melody had..

C, D, E, and/or G for the duration of that chord.

A Bb7 on a Cmaj7 doesn't really work ever, not as a sub in any case. It's a replacement not a sub. A sub should serve the same function with a different sound. Here you replace the function of the Cmaj7 with a tritone to the A7.

**timscarey** · 06-03-2009, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

A Bb7 on a Cmaj7 doesn't really work ever, not as a sub in any case. It's a replacement not a sub. A sub should serve the same function with a different sound. Here you replace the function of the Cmaj7 with a tritone to the A7.

Try it, listen to it, and read the rest of the post. The first bit is about reharms and arrangements. about 2/3rds of the way down I explain how this would not work when playing with other people, unless a lead sheet with the change was present, but if you are playing solo, I feel like whatever harmony you want to use is fine as long as the melody doesn't clash. Seriously, try starting "At Last" with a fat Bb13 resolving to the A minor, I think it sounds great. Granted, it may not fit into the traditional definition of a "Sub" but semantics change depending on who you learn from.

**Joe Dalton** · 06-04-2009, 03:16 AM

Oh no I'm sorry if I came across as saying it doesn't work as harmony. I just feel it's no longer a sub if we change the function of the chord, not that it doesn't work. Like I said it works as a tritone. I read the rest of the post and thought it was great, just sharing my opinion on the idea of subs.