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Yeah, there are legitimate classical feels. In later music a good rubato is essential (I have no idea how to do this.) In baroque and renaissance music the phrasing works in a very specific way. If you just read the notes you wouldn't get this. Even though we jazzers tend to think of classical music as dots on paper there's a lot more to it....
Originally Posted by dasein
Last edited by christianm77; 10-30-2015 at 11:30 AM.
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10-30-2015 11:27 AM
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on the other thought, you' re right, Donna Lee is different. I always use it as a warm up exercise, and just to keep it in shape. There is also tune called Dizzys Atmosphere, which to me has the best Parker solo ever. I was practicing it for a while, and finally the other day I was playing a trio gig, and during a solo on some standard my fingers just started to play a lick from that solo. It just happened almost subconciously, and it fitted the changes somehow! Originally Posted by christianm77
Monk tunes, like you said, are based on riffs, which closer to blues tradition IMO. To me he often sounded like a deconstructed avangard bluesman, like a blues Picasso! But the blues is still there at the core!
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Great great articles! One thing confused me a little in Steve Coleman essay he claims he can hear direct influence of Church music on Bird. I think hes talking about Gospel as in African American Churches. I was lucky enough to play ina Gospel band years ago, and also observed it by being there, listening to the real guys... To me the music was epitome of repetitive phrasing! I saw the point of Gospel music to drive the point home by hammering a riff down with groove that makes people jump in convulsions and scream Jesus! The repetition is the key! To me CP is opposite of that. Where is the connection? Originally Posted by bako
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At some churches don't people roll around and speak in tongues?
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We call those 'pubs' in the UK. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Hep,
You are looking from the perspective of 2 and 4 phrase/riff repetition.
It has been awhile since I read the article but it is likely that Steve is
considering also other aspects of similarity when he references a church music
influence in Parker's playing.Last edited by bako; 10-30-2015 at 01:51 PM.
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I think you nailed it with the analysis! Great example to prove that also bebop is defined more by rhythm than by notes! I might reference when I have that discussion with students Originally Posted by christianm77
JensLast edited by JensL; 10-30-2015 at 03:56 PM. Reason: So that I actually write what I mean and not the opposite.....
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But I thought this discussion leans more toward the opposite- 'bebop is more defined by rhythm than by notes', no? That's the impression I got so far. Definetly thats what Steve Coleman article argues about. Originally Posted by JensL
I think you nailed it with the analysis! Great example to prove that also bebop is defined more by notes than by rhythm! I might reference when I have that discussion with students
Jens
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Yes sorry! I actually managed to write the opposite of what I meant Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
It's been a long week....
Jens
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There does seem to be strong consensus here towards that.
FWIW I do think there are also some distinctively beboppy things notes wise, too, although we could take all these out and the example would still be bop due to its rhythm.
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Certainly, all styles will have types of harmonies or melodies that are typical for that genre. Originally Posted by christianm77
When I was in a Jazz History class at the Conservatory I think bebop was defined from rhythm and interaction, which set it apart from swing before it and hard bop after it.
Jens
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Sounds like you went to a good school :-) I agree with your highly qualified and experienced professors, which I'm sure would relieve them no end ;-) Originally Posted by JensL
A lot of people do talk about note choices though as a defining factor - including some great musicians!
The classic one is the famous 'higher intervals of the chords' quote usually given as a direct quote from Bird, but according to Conrad Cork in his book, on closer examination of the sources is actually nothing of the kind. (The Conrad Cork articles/rants in a Harmony with Lego Bricks are the things that got me thinking this way about bop.)
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Ironically the guy teaching the course is not that highly qualified, but for the rest it's a fine school (though I'm of course not entirely objective for several reasons....) Originally Posted by christianm77
I think the focus on note choice etc is just an example of how long it has taken theory and pedadogy to catch up with a way to describe and teach the rhythm even if it is essential to the style.
Jens
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If he was highly qualified, maybe he'd have been telling you how bebop is all about the upper extensions? ;-) I troll slightly.... Originally Posted by JensL
True dat - but all they ever needed to do was talk to drummers ;-) Originally Posted by JensL
That said, did drummers of the time have a conscious analytical understanding that could be 'taught', or did they go with intuition and experiential knowledge?
Can any of this really be taught, or does it have to learned through experience?
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He was very proud he could write out the chords to Giant Steps, took him 15 minutes and it had 18 bars when he did it Originally Posted by christianm77
He also once announced that Herbie Hancock was the piano player of the Horace Silver Quintet.
It's not so important if they had a conscious understanding when they invented it. Originally Posted by christianm77
Of course this can be taught in many ways, for some analytical ways will work for other it's imitation or maybe even experimentation. That really depends on the student more than anything else.
On a side note: I often find it odd that so many people around here assume that learning something is bound to a specific approach like transcribing or learning to imitate solos.
If I look at myself and my students I see the learning style vary from topic to topic.
Jens
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Bebop and the game of H-O-R-S-E
Once upon a time in this country, kids learned to play basketball on the playground. One of the things they did, apart from actual games was to play HORSE. In this game, a player is given the ball on an empty court, and he has to come up with some kind of shot....a fifteen foot fadeaway jumper....a reverse pivot underhand scoop shot, a "Bread"---a layup where you pass the ball behind your back, and then go up for the shot, a "Bread and Butter"--a Bread where you finish with the ball coming up underneath your legs as you shoot it, etc.: You could choose whatever you wanted, and nothing was required.
If I made the shot I came up with, you had to match it....if you matched it, then I get to go again...often I would add in another additional stylistic "curlicue"....so it was fun...it was creative...it was not pre=determined...it had an element of interaction in it...no two games were ever the same....you needed a bunch of basic moves, but you needed to be able to string them together in new/unique ways to challenge the other guy....can you see where I'm going with this?! (In HORSE, the player who cannot successfully replicate the other guy's invention gets a letter when he misses, five misses, H-O-R-S-E, and he has lost.)
I think a lot of jazz music, and esp. bebop, and especially Charlie P's bebop has the same spirit....his phrasing is outrageous....starts/stops....slurs....anticipate the next chord....delay it, and then resolve, etc, enclose the chord tone, keep the tension and lengthen the phrase--as Eddie Jefferson sang, "Bebop my friends was a whole ....lotta fun....you could take any old riff...and make a real long run....ske..dooba dooba..diddly bop...dee...dee.." (My recollection of this exact Eddie J. phrase is NOT exact, but it is true to the spirit of it, which is kind of my point.) Charlie P's playing is like a tightrope act where part of the listening pleasure is seeing if he can pull off the "move" he has attempted.
There are as many ways to create, and sculpt a bebop phrase, as there are possible basketball "combinations"....and virtually an unlimited set of permutations and possibilities, though the basic "constituent moves" may repeat themselves.
Because of this, it is an extremely idiomatic language...and as anyone who has learned a second language knows, idioms are the least regular...least learnable part of the language...but mastering them is what sets apart the native speaker from the Berlitz student.
I used to play basketball, and the game itself is very jazzlike....the necessity of mastering a bunch of basic moves, the insight to see how they might apply in a given situation so that you were worked on your hesitation move, your dribble drive, the pullback, the running hook, etc. I loved to play endless games of half court pickup basketball, the equivalent of basketball jam sessions...and if you were smart you honed your moves to be able to perform them seamlessly, at real speed ("in tempo"), and mastered them to the point that you could do them without hesitation, and nervousness in a real game situation. When I was warmed up properly before the game, I would get trance-like once the game started...none of the crowd mattered--home or away...you were just in the flow of the moment....when I'm playing gtr. well, I feel the same thing. (Probably professional players here can tell us the same thing...when it is really flowing, and the music just comes out effortlessly.)
I am far from expert as an improviser,but when I play something decent, half of the time I'm not sure what I really did...you play it with some overarching ideas...latch onto a rhythm, a phrase, a common note, etc...and as you're playing it, your ear is telling you whether it is working or not.
I am just a little bit wary of trying to nail down the magic of how the music is put together....there are masters of it, and I'm not one of them (yet, or maybe ever), but they are acting on the level of unconscious mastery.Last edited by goldenwave77; 10-30-2015 at 06:55 PM.
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One of the frustrating things about a lot of post-war arranging books is that the authors assume you lived through the Swing era, just like they did. They therefore take it as read that you know what a lot of the arranging cliches of that era were, and why ('naturally') you'd want to avoid them. What those books highlight is that the musical environment of the time meant that there was a shorthand between persons of a certain generation. Radio, live bands, film, all featured syncopated music. It was unavoidable and said generation would have been able to do a lot of things naturally, simply from absorbing the 'lessons' all around them. That's why some younger players have difficulty swinging. Rock etc is predominantly straight. So people have to learn how to swing...which seem weird to me. I grew up during the 70s, but Rock & Roll revivals, glam rock, corny brat pack films on the TV during holidays, TV theme music written by arrangers who'd moved into TV in the 50s...it was all swing. Originally Posted by christianm77
Re drummers, yes, drummers more than anyone were able to teach the concepts of ragtime, dixie, swing and bop respectively. I collect old drum books and know that to be the case. Ray Bauduc and Gene Krupa were able to get across not only the basics, but some of the more intricate stuff too. Certainly enough to get generations of budding drummers started (plus me!)
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I had the krupa book too. Interesting if solid, old school stuff. I gave it to a drummer friend who plays swing...
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Btw Gerry I think you have put your finger on exactly why it's taking me so long to learn this music, and why I am seriously considering giving up and just playing contemporary jazz (which doesn't have to swing.) In all seriousness, is it any wonder why so much of today's jazz is so straight? It's what we are good at....
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When it came out, it was anything but old school. Originally Posted by christianm77
Pretty much every era of jazz (and even before that), you find educators (some of them well known) bringing out drum tutors outlining the styles of the day. Sometimes basic, other times quite detailed, including photos demonstrating technique. During and after the Bop era, some quite sophisticated stuff was around. The Charley Wilcoxon stuff was used by Philly Joe Jones, IIR. Seriously, drummers were well ahead of the game when it came to education (Jazz or otherwise).Last edited by GuitarGerry; 10-30-2015 at 08:37 PM.
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Don't give up, create your own environment and retrain your ears. The more you listen to the old stuff, the more you develop a feel for it. OK, it's not ideal, but Swing can be taught...unless you're Neil Peart (it's a drummer's joke). Originally Posted by christianm77
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Ok so I am just not going to get into the modern jazz and swinging thing, because we really don't agree on that Originally Posted by christianm77
What Gerry is saying about listening is indeed essential, it is very important to develop a concept of how you hear swing in order to improve your own. That is why all beginners play swing as triplets with the emphasis on the beat, that is how they hear it and/or how they can execute it. The rest needs to be trained.
So to point out some different ways you can work on this (Ignore me if you think it's silly...)
If you have a really strong example then learn that and practice untill you can play along with it. This is imitation and is part of the ear training and also building the technique to play the style with the right phrasing. I think everybody needs to do this to some degree, but it's not a method that everybody likes, so some only do this and others rarely do it.
If you learn it by experimenting you listen to a phrase and then you try to make another phrase that has the same sort of swing feel. For this you probably need to record yourself to hear if it swings. You keep on trying until you get it to sound the way you want to when you are playing your own solo.
If you use analysis you listen to a phrase and try to come up with your own phrase that has the same sort of swing feel. Agasin use recording to "measure" if it swings Instead of just keeping on trying to get the phrase to swing you sit down and try to figure out what is wrong and if you can fix it and play it again in a better way.
Most people probably use a combination of approaches through time, I know I do and see that in students too. If you are missing one and feel stuck then that's where you could try get further.
If you can tell that it doesn't swing in the way you want it to but can pin point why, you probably need to work on your perception of swing.
Sorry for the long post, I worked it out in my head and felt like writing it down. I hope it's not too far off topic.
Jens
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Not necessarily directed at you Christian, but to anyone struggling with the feel of Swing, check out the following video. Note the body movement of bass player Slam Stewart (plus Slim Gaillard). Even before a single note is played, they're swinging. Incidentally, watch this right through to the end, because the dancers in this clip are incredible (seriously!)
Swing and dance were intertwined...no getting away from it. Check out the Monk vid that Christian posted. Again, the rhythm section have that body movement going on. It's not essential to do that to swing. After all, Basie and Mr 5 X 5 are fairly impassive while listening to the proceedings (though they're clearly enjoying the music); plus Monk barely moves...though his feet are swinging like an old man's clackers during a prostate examination. The point is, if you're having trouble getting that feel you can 'force' your body to move in Swing time, even if it's just your feet. Hopefully, the rhythm follows through to your fingers...and to those of your audience (if they're snapping their fingers you've cracked it).Last edited by GuitarGerry; 10-31-2015 at 06:21 AM.
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Good advice Jen, tbh I was being rather flippant as you might have guessed. Originally Posted by JensL
Ok so I am just not going to get into the modern jazz and swinging thing, because we really don't agree on that
What Gerry is saying about listening is indeed essential, it is very important to develop a concept of how you hear swing in order to improve your own. That is why all beginners play swing as triplets with the emphasis on the beat, that is how they hear it and/or how they can execute it. The rest needs to be trained.
So to point out some different ways you can work on this (Ignore me if you think it's silly...)
If you have a really strong example then learn that and practice untill you can play along with it. This is imitation and is part of the ear training and also building the technique to play the style with the right phrasing. I think everybody needs to do this to some degree, but it's not a method that everybody likes, so some only do this and others rarely do it.
If you learn it by experimenting you listen to a phrase and then you try to make another phrase that has the same sort of swing feel. For this you probably need to record yourself to hear if it swings. You keep on trying until you get it to sound the way you want to when you are playing your own solo.
If you use analysis you listen to a phrase and try to come up with your own phrase that has the same sort of swing feel. Agasin use recording to "measure" if it swings Instead of just keeping on trying to get the phrase to swing you sit down and try to figure out what is wrong and if you can fix it and play it again in a better way.
Most people probably use a combination of approaches through time, I know I do and see that in students too. If you are missing one and feel stuck then that's where you could try get further.
If you can tell that it doesn't swing in the way you want it to but can pin point why, you probably need to work on your perception of swing.
Sorry for the long post, I worked it out in my head and felt like writing it down. I hope it's not too far off topic.
Jens
I would suggest that judgement of recordings of ones own playing can be extremely subjective. I find I need to give it a week at least before I can get any info from recordings.
One thing that has really helped me with my understanding of swing is grasping the true significance of the 1/2 and 1/4 triplet. In fact this is not only a feature of swing of course. Another is really aiming to synchronis my playing to my foot tapping, or walking in time.
There are very few people around who swing like say, cannonball (perhaps even then), but that is not to say that modern musicians have bad time... (I think everyone could profit from playing to dancers though - jazz clubs have some interesting effects on people's playing one of which is the decline of the good old medium bounce...)
I am actually saying the opposite - questioning the validity of trying to be someone I am not. When I play contemporary style jazz it feels best to me. It's easier, because you don't have to subconsciously edit out things, or feel you are missing something huge (like the apprenticeship system) etc, and that I think is a good thing for the creative process. Music is about now. So in a sense it is about giving up and playing naturally :-)
That's not to say that we shouldn't study the past, obviously. And there are gigs in pastiching the past... And all the top contemp guys seem to have checked out their history.
In conclusion I am happy that I have improved my feel to the state it's in and will continue to improve I hope. Its something my I pour more energy into than anything else. But people dance to my playing, so that's a start.Last edited by christianm77; 11-01-2015 at 07:50 PM.
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Then you are not doing it right. You have to remember that when you record yourself practicing something you need to listen for the thing your are practicing and not anything else. That's the point of recording yourself practicing, and you should not need distance to be able to judge it. Waiting a week for something like this would make it completely pointless, I almost feel like telling you to "grow up" But I do recognize that it takes getting used to. Originally Posted by christianm77
Jens
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