-
RE: point 2, You don't get away that easily fella, please explain your reasons for thinking this.
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
As a qualified music educator I was trained to use this type of approach, and I would much rather participate in this type of class as a student, as I tend to fall asleep in lectures. :-)Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2015 at 10:14 AM. Reason: me running my mouth
-
09-29-2015 09:24 AM
-
Sure. Can you first expand on the paragraph that starts "as an educator..." I'm not sure I'm picturing your alternative style class in terms of its objectives, assumptions, limitations and constraints. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
I'm not going to give you a lesson plan I'm afraid. That'll cost ya. ;-) Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Srsly, I have a bit of a busy day admin wise, so not today. That said, I think doing a lesson plan would be a really fun and constructive little exercise, and might add something to the debate. But a thorough plan may represent quite a bit of work, maybe an hour or two.
Are you an educator yourself?Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2015 at 11:21 AM.
-
I'm just picturing a paragraph or two.
No I'm not an educator. Taught guitar privately for a few years after music school while turning to Computer Science and Bidness. May start teaching beginners again in the not too distant future.
-
Nothing related to creativity, expression, composing, arranging, or improvisation? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Last edited by KirkP; 09-29-2015 at 02:08 PM.
-
new student: I want to play FAST... Originally Posted by fumblefingers
and they don't mean only play fast..they mean teach/learn fast..
-
Could do... Other than what I have described - tutor gives class a lead sheet of a standard, for example, students split into small groups and thinks of ways of analysing the tune, group re-convenes, writing down some general ideas, and has a discussion session chaired by the tutor. If the session is moving slowly, tutor makes suggestions, and covers anything on the syllabus that might have been missed. There is then a summary of the session at the end and further assignments are set. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
This initial session could be used to drive future sessions, and the direction of students work, although a central syllabus would probably still be involved. In an ideal world there would be maximum flexibility, but this would take some working out to do well.
If this sounds vague, it's because it is. As always, god and devil are in the details. There are a lot of elements that need to be covered in the lesson plan for the session to be truly effective. But this is all doable, and this type of lesson plan is pretty mainstream stuff in teaching - reflects the way my music ed course tutor taught me and I love it - he demonstrated the theories of teaching he was talking about by actually applying them in class. Really opened my eyes. And I didn't fall asleep once ;-)Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2015 at 03:12 PM.
-
This thread is still surprising me with its weirdness. Originally Posted by KIRKP
Ok, so maybe North Texas IS a little more rigorous than the average music school, but to get in and DO WELL, you were already pretty good. GIT grads would come in as freshmen just like anybody else. If you declared as a jazz arranging major, your major prof had scored charts for films and big name popular music acts. One of my classmates, a composition major, went straight to LA to score TV shows. The dyslexic keyboardist I mentioned played with Seal and Chris Isaak.
And ear training wasn't basic solfege. Good grief, I literally did that when was 6 years old. As a jazz major if you couldn't transcribe a Parker solo - regardless of your own instrument - you were screwed.
I just don't get all the hostility towards music school, other than to say you shouldn't knock it til you try it.Last edited by BigDee62; 09-29-2015 at 07:18 PM.
-
In case you're wondering what I did with my own music education ... nothing. After getting accepted for a PhD in theory at Yale, I passed on that to study the history of printing at Oxford. I've been doing strange stuff ever since.
So I'll gladly admit, I have my own brand of weirdness. But more to the point, I have huge respect for music educators.Last edited by BigDee62; 09-29-2015 at 07:28 PM.
-
North Texas isn't the norm, just like Oberlin isn't the norm. The Lab bands that come out of North Texas are on a whole nother level, but they gotta do a better job of getting onto Amazon. Hell, the musicians that come from that high school in North Texas (what is it called?) are ridiculous (I went to college with one, he went to the same HS as Robert Glasper and co).
But, in schools offer music as a major (but are not music schools) basic solfege is the end. Do I regret going to CCNY, heck no! I double majored in English Lit, took some amazing philosophy classes, and got to hear Michio Kaku end every lecture with a Eurecka moment of "Hoooooleeeee SHIIIIIT". The professors were amazing. Also, we had some really great musicians on staff such as John Patitucci, Scott Reeves, and Mike Holober (mr. bad ass with the fanny pack Holober
)
My musicianship studies came in the middle of college and continued long after, from an NYU professor and private teacher: Bruce Arnold.
EDIT: High School for Performing and Visual Arts in Houston. They got something special there!Last edited by Irez87; 09-29-2015 at 08:08 PM.
-
those too, with the exception of creativity. That can't be taught. Originally Posted by KIRKP
"Now class, ready set go - be creative!"
Anyway, the purpose of my post was to make a point about some of the things that formal music education should offer - that may not otherwise be stressed - against the typical tsunami of "we don't need no stinking music school" that you get from jazz guitar pickers.
incidentally, the last time I was at Dizzy's Club, Christian McBride raved to the audience about his college jazz mentor between songs.
People go to school now, this ain't 1955. That's just the way it is.Last edited by fumblefingers; 09-29-2015 at 09:47 PM.
-
the instant gratification generation then??? Originally Posted by wolflen
-
Originally Posted by BigDee62
That sounds about right for UNT, the largest music school in the US. Big state school, established and esteemed program, lots of students, high standards, etc.
I went to a number of music schools actually, sometimes 2 during the same semester. Two of them were large state schools. The other two were smaller, more expensive, private ones. And yes, the large state schools were tougher. The largest state school had "Whiplash" type instructors in some cases, yelling and screaming worse than a friggin' football coach, and I've played for a few football coaches. But then they could afford to act that way, couldn't they? Always plenty of students on hand. But the smaller schools??? Well, there's an old saying or two - "don't bite the hand that feeds", and "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". (Incidentally, I noticed this dynamic in two graduate engineering schools as well).
On the hostility thing, it comes up fairly frequently. Some people are just anti-college. Others may not be anti-college but aren't comfortable thinking about jazz as being anything other than gritty, earthy, folksy music, and certainly don't like thinking of it as art music. In other words, they think of it in a manner not unlike how one would think of the Blues or hip-hop. That's their world view and they don't want it to be disturbed. Others participate in jazz as a hobby, so really can't relate to a person going "all in" as a music major. The common thread is that most of these folks know little to nothing about what it means to be a music major, jazz or otherwise.
-
That's a bit of a silly thing to say. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
There are many classroom exercises you can do to develop aspects of the creative process through music. There are many jazz educators doing this type of work in workshops and band sessions.Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2015 at 09:57 PM.
-
I have to own up to this. I only know what it's like to earn a living through music. I have to say from what I hear from my colleagues, the vast majority of whom have been to jazz college, it seems pretty strange to me and a sort of parallel reality. I think I would have found it very strange to be *required* to study bebop or to be assessed on a final recital and have to explain my music. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
The cosy, co-dependent relationship between contemporary jazz artist/labels and the education system is a bit of evolutionary cul de sac. *shrugs* I don't get gigs from this circuit anyway.Last edited by christianm77; 09-29-2015 at 10:02 PM.
-
I was a music major for most of my undergrad at CCNY. I spent nights and early mornings (leaving the practice rooms at 4AM in Harlem with a guitar on your back is... not advisable... especially if it's still dark out) in the practice room. My time up at the top of the world (Shepard Hall was a spectacularly beautiful Gothic building and had a great view) in those practice rooms was also the best time of my life... until I met my gf. I would hear a pianist play some interesting harmonies in one room, knock on the door and learn a little. Then I'd hear my friend riffing it on his alto, and I'd go over to him and cop some licks. Then we'd go to the hole in the wall Greek place behind the college (those who went to CCNY around the same time I did will know the place) with my friends. Look up Allan Mednard, I went to college with him and he introduced me to a lot of the hip contemporaries like Glasper and Kneebody.
Here's Mr. Bad Ass Fanny Pack Holober conducting a big band at CCNY. Recognize the tenor player in the back right corner?
All that said, I didn't get good musicianship classes at CCNY. My musicianship came from making an ass of myself in combos. But, what fun it was!
Here's a vid of some of my friends from CCNY, there were no joke:
Unfortunately, after college, many of us lost touch
Last edited by Irez87; 09-29-2015 at 10:22 PM.
-
That sounds like a memorable few years... Originally Posted by Irez87
I was a music major for most of my undergrad at CCNY. I spent nights and early mornings (leaving the practice rooms at 4AM in Harlem with a guitar on your back is... not advisable... especially if it's still dark out) in the practice room. My time up at the top of the world (Shepard Hall was a spectacularly beautiful Gothic building and had a great view) in those practice rooms was also the best time of my life... until I met my gf. I would hear a pianist play some interesting harmonies in one room, knock on the door and learn a little. Then I'd hear my friend riffing it on his alto, and I'd go over to him and cop some licks. Then we'd go to the hole in the wall Greek place behind the college (those who went to CCNY around the same time I did will know the place) with my friends. Look up Allan Mednard, I went to college with him and he introduced me to a lot of the hip contemporaries like Glasper and Kneebody.
Here's Mr. Bad Ass Fanny Pack Holober conducting a big band at CCNY. Recognize the tenor player in the back right corner?
All that said, I didn't get good musicianship classes at CCNY. My musicianship came from making an ass of myself in combos. But, what fun it was!
Here's a vid of some of my friends from CCNY, there were no joke:
Unfortunately, after college, many of us lost touch
-
OK, good on them. it probably can't hurt. Originally Posted by christianm77
but as you say, "aspects of the creative process". that's not the same as the intrinsic value of the creative product.
-
No, man, I am sailing: Originally Posted by Irez87
-
The sailing vid reminded me that my old classmate Henry Hey has a passion for sailing.
Here's a vid of something creative Henry did. It only looks like it's about George Bush, it's not, and it's not political. But it's pretty impressive and a bit amusing, check it out:
I'm not going to tell you that Henry wouldn't have been brilliantly creative without attending music school. He was amazing the first day he stepped on campus as a freshman. But I'm sure he would tell you himself, he learned a lot while he was at music school.
Can creativity be taught? That question really misses the point. I'm pretty good at math but I can't teach you math. I can explain the equations to you, and give you exercises to do. Then, you have to do the work to learn it yourself. Teaching how to compose or improvise is exactly the same thing. I could show you classical music theory, and show you where JSBach was thoughtfully selective in where he followed convention or broke the rules in a given piece of music. We could take the same approach analyzing a transcribed Bird solo. Then, it's up to you to spend the time in the practice room absorbing the information and making it your own.
When I hear "composition can't be taught," what I hear is, "I'm not willing to try a program of study to learn how to do better composition." You're choosing to limit yourself, plain and simple.Last edited by BigDee62; 09-30-2015 at 09:02 AM.
-
It's a parallel reality within music school. One of the dumbest things we had to do was 'write' an improvisation, either as a test or home work. The purpose was to demonstrate that we understood the concepts that were being taught. In that respect it had some validity. Think of it as a theory test instead of improvisation, and it makes sense. HOWEVER, at the same time there were scheduled improvisation ensembles, where you'd spend an hour or so, thrown in at the deep end, playing in small groups, each taking solos, trading fours etc. The guys who took those classes were laid back and at no point did they try to force us to play the approaches being taught in lectures. One encouraged us to use nothing but our ears (a sort of f*ck theory approach); the other was really cool in suggesting alternative approaches over things we were struggling with. Either way, it was totally creative and relaxed (no big deal if you ****** up) Originally Posted by christianm77
Also, aside from the 'weird' analytical stuff, students do things on their own accord you know. They're not all androids waiting to be programmed by their all-important tutor. Chr*st, most of my learning came about from all the jam sessions, in college and outside, plus gigging experience. Some students on the course were already full time musicians They were studying because they realised from 'real world' experience what their limitations were.
Perhaps you're meeting the wrong type of music graduate? Admittedly, you could single out grads who are 'non-creatives'. I knew a few students who simply couldn't improvise. I think it was in them to be creative, but they felt otherwise...so they stuck to the human juke-box thing, played in cover bands, and wrote out their solos when playing jazz. They were in the minority though. Young people do have brains; especially if they're educated (which you have to be if you go to study). Creative types will create, regardless of how rigid their tuition is.
I will concede that there might be a generation gap here (in the UK). About a year after I finished my studies, the course I was on downgraded in order to receive 'official' recognition/status. A drummer I knew ended up teaching on the course and he said it had tanked in terms of: standard of pupil being admitted (let's go for the bucks and get the kids in); and standard of teaching (dumbed down for a shorter, two-year course). In the early 90s a whole load of similar courses started to spring up...so it's possible that standards across the country have tanked.Last edited by GuitarGerry; 09-30-2015 at 05:44 AM.
-
well I didn't say that. maybe someone else did? Originally Posted by BigDee62
composition and improv can be taught, and are taught, everywhere. or you might say, composition and improv theory.
the end product of both is dependent on both skill and creativity. skill is taught - and learned. creativity? not so much.
-
That's a real shame. I believe a not-for-profit educational institution owes it to the students to be insanely competitive just like the real world. I'm not necessarily advocating the Whiplash approach, but if the kid doesn't have a chance, get him to pick a more appropriate major. Originally Posted by GuitarGerry
Most of my family and friends making their living in music studied music at university for at least a couple years. One exception is Kirk McKim but he still completed a year at GIT.
It's become a bit like pro basketball - a few extraordinarily talented individuals can make the jump straight to the pro leagues, but most folks benefit from at least a couple years in school.
-
I find it's difficult to separate the two concepts of skill and creativity. There are days when my improvisation surprises myself - but that creativity wouldn't be there if I hadn't logged tens of thousands of hours practicing and composing. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I understand many (most?) successful novelists have developed a life-long habit of writing at least a few hours every day. That's where skill and craft turns into creativity.
-
What is the intrinsic value of the creative product? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
How is this balanced against the value of the creative process?
Those are quite big questions, I would be interested in your thoughts.
One of the fundamental tensions of being a improvising musician is that (for me at least) the process is much more interesting and valuable to the musician, but that it is the product that one sells on the whole - 'swing', 'bebop', 'fusion', 'free' etc. I wonder with the devaluing of recorded music if that isn't going to change in the next few years, though.
A colleague of mine teaches a course in musicianship and at a conservatoire to undergrads (it's pretty good school). He says the most difficult thing is to get musicians involved. He teaches a lot of improvisation and ear training and so on, but a lot of musicians are a bit disconnected, which is a shame. They probably see the course as marginal, and might not take the coursework requirements etc seriously. They'd rather just play rep and take lessons (it's a classical course.) So it goes both ways.
Anyway, arguments/debates on the internet are largely a waste of energy. Instead, I invite you (or anyone here) to think of 10 learning activities which could challenge or develop the creative process in improvised music. Your 10 gets my 10. I think that would be constructive classroom exercise in itself.Last edited by christianm77; 09-30-2015 at 11:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
Autumn Leaves (Fingerstyle Chord Melody)
Yesterday, 11:56 PM in Improvisation