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So who jams to four part chorales? Classical music has plenty of parallel octaves. If instruments with different registers double a part, there's your octaves. Not to mention Bach's Toccata in D minor:
Originally Posted by JohnW400
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08-13-2009 03:48 PM
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Ok, guys, read my post again and bear this in mind: Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
4 part chorales are soprano alto tenor and bass vocal music. I used this example to illustrate a point about what came first, the music or the theory. If you've ever taken a high school or college theory class they always cover 4 part chorales and voice leading rules. They have nothing to do with any other instrument and what have you.
In the Bach Toccata there are more than 4 voices. By virtue of 10 fingers and two feet there could be 12 voices. Different thing altogether.
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08-13-2009, 03:57 PM #53Jazzarian Guest Originally Posted by JohnW400
How about "latin" piano? Octaves being the hallmark of it?
Just goes to show one, take rigid ideas of music theory with a grain of salt if you're going to play jazz.
Sometimes that's a hard thing for classical guitarists to do.
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I always find these types of threads somewhat amusing.
Here's a couple of points.
1.) Whatever your level of playing proficiency, your a stronger player with theoretical knowledge than without it, no matter how deep your theoretical knowledge may be. Knowledge is power.
2.) In my 35+ years in 'the biz', I have yet to meet a working pro who has complained that theoretical knowledge got in their way or hindered their playing.
3.) These types of threads always seem to have the underlying theme that players like Hendrix or Joe Pass for example were musically illiterate. But even if that were true, that was then, this is now. Today's reality is that the internet has theoretical knowledge plastered all over it. You have two choices, either study it, or loose ground to competitors that do.
FWIW
john
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08-13-2009, 04:35 PM #55Jazzarian GuestExcellent John, I concur completely. Originally Posted by John Curran
Still one wonders what might have been if a young Wes Montgomery had access to the internet.
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Maybe he would have found a surgeon who claimed to be able to fix "hitchhiker's thumb"? Originally Posted by Jazzarian
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08-13-2009, 04:46 PM #57Jazzarian GuestNot if Leyla, Frye, Bender, Al Gore's head and I went back in time and killed the surgeon. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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So are you Hermes, Amy or the Professor? Originally Posted by Jazzarian
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08-13-2009, 05:16 PM #59Jazzarian GuestNibbler. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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That's some heavy sh*t you got there, man.
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Without knowledge of basic music theory, you won't be able to fully express your musical ideas; nor will you be able to share those ideas with others. Of course, it isn't just professional musicians who need to know music theory. Even if you're just doing it for your own personal enjoyment, knowledge of theory will help you better appreciate the music you play or sing.
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Hi sorry I have not replied in a while. I just moved to Vancouver and it was nothing but smooth!
Anyway I'd like to clarify something. I did not mean to upset anyone by saying that there are "non-musicians" who play guitar or something to that effect. Myself, I'm an ignorant 24-year-old, OK? The way I say things might be of my limited observation.
I just feel frustrated musically. I hope I did not lead anyone to think that I'm an "unnatural" musician or that I'm "too theory-based." I have musicianship. I also have the need-to-know of how stuff works, not just with music, but with almost everything. I could be considered obsessive in some ways.
Why frustrated? It's because I don't get how people play music on an instrument yet can't explain to me or someone else what they're doing. To me, music is somewhat a language. It's like being able to speak and read. As there are people who can speak a language yet can't read it, there are also those who can play a musical instrument yet cannot read music. I'm not a "stiff" musician, if that makes any sense. I have feel of rhythm, pitch, tempo, stylistic alterations...whatever...i might not be able to play as good as you can but I can play. It's just that ppl who don't read or study the language of music are difficult for me to understand. It's like there's a language barrier. Example: my buddy gave me shit for playing the exact same notes on a different part of the fretboard. He got irritated with me and insisted I play exactly as he does or else. You guessed it--he doesn't read music or understand notes. I feel like I can't play with these ppl. Maybe I'm just not smart or something.
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Don't forget that the sounds came before the theory. Music is organizing sounds, not bolting together theoretical concepts. Whatever you play can be explained by some concept. If you play a simple melody with an outside note, some might call it a Maj scale with a passing tone others will call it the 6th mode of the Klingon Melodic scale. Originally Posted by \m/ Mad Metal Mage \m/
The point is to learn to organize sound in your own way. Take advantage of all the theory you know and apply all the tricks and fretboard symmetries you can see. It is better to apply sounds that you understand through your own effort than it is seek the unified theory of music" Over time, your repertoire of concepts will increase and you will develop a more robust understanding of theory. But play what you know first and continue to explore and organize your personal sounds and approach. Don't worry about the validation of others.
For what its worth, and happy hunting.
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Could you write that one out for me ? I'm ahving a little trouble following some of their opras Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
. If you play a simple melody with an outside note, some might call it a Maj scale with a passing tone others will call it the 6th mode of the Klingon Melodic scale.
For what its worth, and happy hunting.
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I hear you, Mage. I get the same frustration sometimes too.
It burns me when I put all the effort of learning the why not just the how with music and some 18 y/o wipes the floor with me because he practiced Hendrix lines over and over for a month solid. Obviously, there is talent and dedication there, but I want more than just the flashy. I don't want to always be regurgitating the same lines somebody came up with 40 or 100 years ago. I want to learn why that sounds good so that I can figure out how to do it too (not that they always knew the why themselves).
Further, when I ask someone how they did something, that's a freakin' big complement. I see it in dancing a lot. Some kat does a move that everyone likes and so eventually someone asks how he/she did it. We don't always know (sometimes it's a mistake). Same with guitar. But when you ask someone who doesn't know the language behind the music what they did it, usually comes out as a "Like this" statement followed by a full speed repeat. That doesn't help or further anyone's education (of course, that may be the idea).
~DB
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Sorry John.. The Klingon Melodic Minor can only be played on the "GLAK". Originally Posted by JohnW400
Could you write that one out for me ? I'm ahving a little trouble following some of their opras
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This is a great thread. Some really well thought-out ideas on what is really quite a philosophical question.
What makes a good guitarist? Someone who plays things "correctly"? Someone who plays from the heart? Someone who can play really fast, or complicated things? For me, it's all of them, really, plus a little extra.
Knowing theory really makes going from A-B quicker. It also gives you more options, and a wider knowledge of the possibilities out there. Solely relying on it effectively gets you nowhere, as you'll end up going either directly A-B (a bit dull) or using all the possibilities (too much). Taste for me, is equally as important as theory, as I believe you should pick the right way to go from A-B. Not "correct" or "the best" way. The right way can change from moment to moment, song to song, mood to mood and it's ultimately down to you as a player. It's fine to know the options, and having the chops to play them, and having the gear to sound the way you want, but if you don't feel it, then it ain't right.
I probably have a romantic notion of guitar, and of music in general, but I come as a listener first, rather than a musician. "Giant Steps" doesn't "impress" me with it's theoretical grounding, I simply love it. I respect musicians who know their stuff - it shows dedication and hard work - I just care about the end result more. Could Coltrane have performed "Giant Steps" with a book telling him where to go? Probably. Would it be the same? Probably not. Does Neil Young need a theory lesson because "Cinnamon Girl" has a one note solo? No, because it's the right note for him. And for me as a listener.
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Hi! Guitarists,
Well, every musician must know the theory of music, even a mere singer. Because it gives a sense of knonwing what you're doing. For instance, I myself, I've been searching for a way to know all I can about music especially the (guitar) which eventually, through a google search, I came across this site. Then my interest took to the level of learning to reaad music because almost all the messages, licks, tips, etc that've been sent to my mail are being written in music symbols and signs and I'm finding it somewhat had to comprehend that's why I decided to search for a way I can learn to read music. So for me I think it should be a compulsory issue or assignment every musician should himself or herself !!!
Alrigth guys, we'll meet again next time. BYE !
Sincerely,
Nuel.
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Theory is not law. Theory is unproven. Knowing a theory doesn't make it true. It's just a bunch of ideas that help some people think they understand something that can't be understood.
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False. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Why is it called theory of music and not the law of music? Because every rule of music theory can be broken and you can STILL produce music.
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It is called Einstein's THEORY of relativity, but that does not mean there are no facts and evidence behind it. It is called the theory of evolution, but....well, I just hope you are not a dipshit creationist! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
So much for the first part.
The second part is more complicated. I doubt that EVERY rule of music theory is ever violated, except by people like John Cage, etc.. And those people almost always violate the laws CONSCIOSLY, so they have to know them very well indeed.
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spoken like someone who has not deeply studied music. tune your guitar so none of the strings are in good intervals, play something completley out of time, and feel free to call it music. no one else will. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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the fun of breaking the rules is knowing 'em in the first place!
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I think that you will find that there are theory rules that govern even those instances when the rules get broken. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Theory is what developed after the fact. It's what came about after musicians heard a piece of music and reverse engineered it.
Can you make music and not know theory? Sure. But you will develop your own 'theories" of why you can do certain things.
For guitar players it might be some sort of mathmatical thing like "drop the E minor pentatonic down to the 9th fret and you can play the riff's to the Allman Brothers "Blue Skies" , dude".
Oops, sorry. Knowing it's a pentatonic scale implies that theres theory involved.
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