What is a key in music?

[fep]

How about trying to reverse engineer the solution by using multiple regression analysis?

Still not easy as you'd have to define your predictive variables, but at least with multiple regression you could measure how well the predictive variables... predict.

[Irez87]

Figuring out how *you* actually locate a key or modulation without the chart in front of you is really interesting. Still working on it, but it brings up weird associations to what I've listened to before, just like many on this thread have noted. Such a deceptively "simple" question, great thread!

[Irez87]

Food for thought, from my teacher:

You hear a tune differently depending on tempo. Rhythm Changes can sound like all Bb, even the bridge, at a brisk clip. A Bb Blues can be heard all in Bb, even with all the changes, if it is quick (or even moderately quick). The ear is a fascinating contraption, so is the brain.

[cosmic gumbo]

[Ollie]

btw the F# is G's 7th (not its flat 7)

I said "F is C's 4th augmenting OR F# is G's 7th flattening" as in when it flattens to F it is G's 7th being flattened.

[Ollie]

How about trying to reverse engineer the solution by using multiple regression analysis?

Still not easy as you'd have to define your predictive variables, but at least with multiple regression you could measure how well the predictive variables... predict.

Honestly, I'm not familiar with that is. Despite my natural aptitude for logic and problem solving, I'm pretty new to programming too...

[Ollie]

Food for thought, from my teacher:

You hear a tune differently depending on tempo. Rhythm Changes can sound like all Bb, even the bridge, at a brisk clip. A Bb Blues can be heard all in Bb, even with all the changes, if it is quick (or even moderately quick). The ear is a fascinating contraption, so is the brain.

This may be to do with note durations, so notes that define the key you hear are held longer than those that aren't genereally? Just a guess.

EDIT: Well, that and note position relative to the downbeat...

[pingu]

I said "F is C's 4th augmenting OR F# is G's 7th flattening" as in when it flattens to F it is G's 7th being flattened.

ok ollie , i'm sure you're well across
all this stuff ....

(i was just trying to clarify for other readers etc)
pingu

[Ollie]

ok ollie , i'm sure you're well across
all this stuff ....

(i was just trying to clarify for other readers etc)
pingu

That's cool man. On the point though, I mentioned that because I wondered whether one of the two accidentals - augmented 4th or the flattened 7th in the context of a major scale - had any more significance than the other. If we were to say there was only one key e.g C major, when might you deviate from the key to use either of the intervals mentioned above? Would either deviation sound more jarring than the other? Perhaps overthinking now...

[bako]

A tonal center is more expansive than the contents of one scale.
Although secondary dominants add an additional note, it doesn't represent a modulation.

Cma7 Am7 Dm7 G7

Cma7 A7+ D7#9 G7+

Both versions are solidly in the key of C.

[Jonah]

as I said I think it's important to describe basic types of cadences - it's the combination of notes what's importans - that is chords and voicings...
you cannot make it with just 'notes fitting the scale'

and basic conditions for what is to be considered 'modulation' and what is 'deviation' (Ausweichung)

[Ollie]

I planned on looking into cadences in more detail. I've never fully understood the concept of cadences hence not saying much about them so far.

@bako

If those extra notes when used to not constitute a modulation, what are they considered? I'd lik,e to be able to say "[THIS] occured within the song", but if I can't call it a modulation, I'll need to be clear on the difference between [THIS] and a modulation. I have some theory books I'm planning on getting to, but my head has been firmly planted in C++ books all Summer and I haven't had time.

[bako]

Don't quote me on the terminology:

Chromatic notes in support of the original tonal center.

A major scale is made up of whole steps and half steps.
Secondary dominants insert additional half step resolutions to the basic destination harmonies of the key.

[Jonah]

and still 'secondary dominants' include modulative process...

I would call it a type of 'deviation'...

Ollie

the most obvious sign of modualtion is the repeated cadence in the new key

bako's sample

Cma7 A7+ D7#9 G7+ (so far it's not a modualtion and mey be it will not be but if we play next

Em7 Am7 D7 G

That's it we're in the key of G


But again altered jazz chords make functions very vague..

(that's why I put simpler 7th chords than bako did) I am almost sure that this task on programming level is aplicable only to classical music and of limited period,

[JonR]

That's cool man. On the point though, I mentioned that because I wondered whether one of the two accidentals - augmented 4th or the flattened 7th in the context of a major scale - had any more significance than the other. If we were to say there was only one key e.g C major, when might you deviate from the key to use either of the intervals mentioned above? Would either deviation sound more jarring than the other? Perhaps overthinking now...

In general (as kind of mentioned above ), chromatic alteration is done to improve voice-leading - not always to change key, or even to tonicise a (non-tonic) chord - although the latter is probably the commonest reason.

Eg, in C major, you'd raise F to F# in order to make a more positive or persuasive move to the G note. That might only be in a melody, but commonly it would be as part of a D major chord leading to the G chord. In that case, D is known as a "secondary dominant". Instead of being labelled "II" it would be "V/V" (dominant of the V chord).
The key would still be C, assuming you returned to C soon enough (eg via G7).

Likewise, you might lower the 7th (B) to Bb in order to lead down to the A note.
Again, that could be a merely melodic move, or part of a C7 chord leading to F (IV). That makes C7 a "secondary dominant" ("V/IV").
Again, the key is still C, provided you return there soon enough.

"Soon enough" is, of course, the grey area. "Tonicising" a chord obviously makes that chord sound (briefly) like a potential new key chord, but whether it becomes that depends partly on how well established the previous key is, as well as how long the sequence spends in the new key ballpark.

Eg. if your song began on a C chord, but launched straight away into a D-G change, the ear would probably conclude that the key was G all along, and you just began with the IV chord. (It's relatively common to begin a song with a non-tonic chord, although the tonic tends to arrive fairly soon.)

An example of a song which spends quite a long time teasing you about its key chord is the Beatles' "All My Loving". The sequence is as follows (one chord per bar):
F#m - B7 - E - C#m - A - F#m - D - B7 -
F#m - B7 - E - C#m - A - B7 - E - E.

The tonic (E) actually arrives in bar 3, but it keeps cycling, and the D puts you off the scent a little. It's not until that final E in bar 15, where the melody also descends the scale to land firmly on E, that you know the song has "come home". (And the bridge, btw, has hints of the relative minor key, C# minor, by using a G# augmented chord; but the voice-leading in this case moves in the opposite direction: C#-C-B, away from C# rather than to it, so ends up confirming the E key anyway.)

[ListenToThis]

If there's a melody played over the chords, many times that will indicate the Key intended. That doesn't mean it's the only possibility but it does indicate the way the writer was hearing it (if s/he is using enough notes to determine a Key). If not enough melody notes are used (or maybe there's no melody), then I go with the vibe or feel that that piece has and listen to a few possibilities in terms of Key and scale(s). More often than not, one Key sounds more "right" than the others.

[pingu]

to me the Key is when it feels like home

usually at the end of the song
back in your own backyard !

[Doctor Jeff]

It's whatever key iRealbook says it is...

Just kidding...

I agree with Pingu--it's whatever key feels right. If it's not the obvious tonal center, as a friend of mine once explained it to me, it's the chord/key that resolves the section--e.g., Autumn Leaves starts out in Cmin but resolves to Gmin (or Amin to Emin depending on where you start).

[Robertkoa]

Yeah Christian - excellent answer.

Sometimes a Key is too broad of a Concept
so I use " Chordal Region " to " zero in" on an A Minor Section( for example) of a Tune for Improvisation Ideas/ Concepts and not worry about the over all" Key " the " A Minor Section " is in - so if we have an 8 Bar section of A min 7 - what is a good way to
Refer to and Conceptualize that ?

Would you guys agree that for Improvising Choices- the Temporary Key is the only Key that matters at each Section or are there exceptions ?

[Robertkoa]

I'm intrigued, and I'm wondering what the ultimate purpose of the program is. Is it for humans to use? (and in what contexts?) Or for computers to write music in some way?
OK, and the point being?
I suppose the first thing would be to point to some simple examples:
Miles Davis: So What, Flamenco Sketches
Herbie Hancock: Maiden Voyage
Freddie Hubbard: Little Sunflower

More complex examples would be:
Wayne Shorter: Ana Maria
John Coltrane: Naima
Joe Henderson: Black Narcissus

Simpler stuff from rock:
Santana: Oye Como Va
Beatles: She Said She Said, Norwegian Wood, Tomorrow Never Knows, Within You Without You.
Rolling Stones: The Last Time
Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun
Joe Satriani: Flying in a Blue Dream

"Modal rock" usually has an obvious key centre, but not with the usual major or minor key sets of chords. IOW, interpreting from the chords or pitch collection alone would point in the wrong direction. But it would be easy to identify the most common chord root used, which is usually a good guide.

With modal jazz, key centres shift, often chord by chord. In tunes where there is a consistent bass pedal (resembling a tonal centre) the chord/scales will change over the top.
Eg, Little Sunflower is pretty clearly "in the key of D", but it isn't D major or D minor (strictly speaking). It's D dorian mode (mostly). So What is also mostly D dorian, with a shift to Eb dorian. Broadly speaking you could say they're both "in D minor" (kind of), but they're nothing like a normal D minor key piece.

I love the catchy Riff that goes over the Verses in the Rolling Stones " Last Time" but never thought of it as Modal.
I always thought of Walter Piston-
IV of IV- IV- I.
Could you explain that ?

Like what is the Parent Key and why it is Modal?

[JonR]

I love the catchy Riff that goes over the Verses in the Rolling Stones " Last Time" but never thought of it as Modal.
I always thought of Walter Piston-
IV of IV- IV- I.
Could you explain that ?

Like what is the Parent Key and why it is Modal?

Good question.
To my ears (and ears are how we identify key), the key of Last Time is E. That seems to be the clear tonal centre of the intro vamp and verse, at least. But obviously it's not conventional E major, as there's a D natural in the riff. So the term "E mixolydian" could be used to describe it. (At least it's a shorter label than "E major with b7" .)

But then it goes to A in the chorus, and then the question is: is A the true tonic, and was the verse simply a dominant vamp all along? That ambiguity is underlined by the D chord on "maybe the last time", because that's followed by A and then the E riff again - by which point the E (to my ears) sounds very much like a V chord, not I.

So is it in A major (V - I - IV) or is it E mixolydian (I - IV- VII)? And does it matter? Not much, IMO.

In E major, the D could be IV/IV, as you suggest, because of the D-A-E cadence (double plagal). Again, I don't think there's one "right" answer here. D-A-E certainly works as IV/IV - IV - I, if the key is E - which it arguably is here. But rock songs in E use a D chord quite freely, without following it with A and E, so it's only that chord order which implies a IV/IV function. Otherwise bVII will do. And of course it's the natural diatonic VII when the mode is mixolydian, which it is here.
That's if we do regard E as keynote, of course!

[Robertkoa]

Thanks JonR-

Yes I remember and always thought of
I -IV of IV -IV - I from the old Walter Piston
but never thought of the Modal aspect.

Knowing ( or pretending ) the Parent Key helps me for Improv ( use any structure from the Parent Key instead of just a 7 Note Scale)..so cool to look at it as Modal.

Tricky Jazz Guys...lol.

In fact in Rock we were supposed to be all rebellious but not near as much Tension/ Release in Rock as in Jazz .

[Irez87]

Simple.

A key is the home base of the tune.

Jazz is key dependent.

D dorian is a key, IMO.

so is C whole tone

A key is a collection of notes that all melody and harmony orbit around in a certain piece of music. The key center creates the gravitational pull that keeps everything connected in beautiful cohesion.

"Fall" has a key center (though I never analyzed it)

"Giant Steps" is most definitely in B major

"Stella" is in Bb major (with hints of the relative minor)

Classical music operates the same way, but classical music is built off of long form pieces. Therefore, classical pieces give the ear an opportunity for true modulation to and from the home key.

In jazz, 90% of the time, what we theorize as modulation is actually tonicization to the ear

Then again, everyone hears differently. But, if you can train you ear to hold on to key center, then you will be able to exploit the gravitational pull of notes and harmonies away from that key center.

That, fellow forum-ites of all things musical on the cigar box, is how we create interest in music. Tension and release. Strong beat weak beat. Musical phrases. Cadences. All that good stuff that treats our ears.

Bruce Arnold explains this better than I... I would love to find an old tape or recording of Charlie Banaco's teaching the concept in its infancy. That would be like... well, that would be like seeing the image of background radiation from the big bang... Know what I am saying?

[bako]

"Giant Steps" is most definitely in B major

Here's what I observe.

Bar 1 and 5 are the beginnings of phrases. These start on B and G.
Bar 3 and 7 are the resolution points for what might be considered a tri-tonic III VI II V equivalent.

Bar 8 the melody shifts it's emphasis, moving on the II V and resolving to various major chords in
the subsequent measure. The resolutions occur in bar 9, 11, 13 and 15 to Eb, G, B and then Eb again.

The song ends on Eb which has always colored my thing towards that key being the most prominent of the three.
In it's favor is the 1st and last resolution.

I tend to view Giant Steps as a cyclical tri-tonic harmony slightly favoring Eb.
B would be my 2nd choice, the power of the opening chord.

What factors lead you to hear B as the key center?
Not my intent to dispute this viewpoint but rather seek to enlarge my own understanding.

Thanks.

[Jonah]

A key is a collection of notes that all melody and harmony orbit around in a certain piece of music. The key center creates the gravitational pull that keeps everything connected in beautiful cohesion.

we should not forget that tension/release is not the only possible realations to create musical semantics.
(though of course they are most typical for European tradition)

"Giant Steps" is most definitely in B major

to me the basic musical idea of Giant Steps was to create something that avoids key centers

And last but not least at all... when we say 'major or minor' we imply idea of functional tonality... if you mean B Ionian it's one thing, if B major it's a different thing