multi-dimensional scales

[Groyniad]

three examples of this - each one is blowing my mind (and of course the diminished scale will be a fourth!)

1. maj 6th scale

2. min 6th scale (maj 6th scale = maj scale with added passing tone between 5 and 6; min 6th scale = maj 6th scale with flatted third and the same passing tone)

3. blues scale (1/b3/4/b5/5/b7)

what i mean by multi-dimensional is this:

any phrase played in one dimension of the scale can be modulated and played in all the others too

so you can play e.g.

1,2,3,2,1,7,6

then

3,4,5,4,3,2,1

5,#5,6,#5,5,4,3

6,7,1,7,6,#5,5

1,2,3,2,1,7,6 (back to beginning)

so you can play any and every phrase in the 1 dimension or the 3 dimension or the 5 or the 6 (adding the crucial passing tone every single time). to start with play phrases with consecutive notes - but you can easily build phrases with gaps in too (obviously).

here's another example

1,2,3,5,4,3
3,4,5,6,#5,5
5,#5,6,1,7,6
6,7,1,3,2,1

nice...

these patterns are v. easy to hear as soon as you start them - the blues scale ones are particularly cool - but they're all great

this is harmonic structure WITHIN a sound not between sounds - and that helps an awful lot

(i'm using this stuff to practice right hand technique mostly - i found all this stuff because i wanted meaningful studies to use to practice picking)

[JonR]

What you're talking about is bebop scales. Bebop major (1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7) and bebop melodic minor (1-2-b3-4-5-#5-6-7).
And you've found what makes them work: you can play 8th note runs and keep chord tones on the beats all the time - that's the purpose of the chromatic passing note, separating 5 and 6 in this case.
The 6th counts as a chord tone for these purposes, whether the chord is major or minor, because these two scales are designed for tonic chords in major or minor keys. (Bebop major will also work on the IV chord, but bebop mel.min. only really fits the tonic - although of course it can be employed on the various jazz melodic minor modes.)

[bako]

What you're talking about is bebop scales. Bebop major (1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7)
and bebop melodic minor (1-2-b3-4-5-#5-6-7).

Jon,

You are correct but within Barry Harris language, these are Major 6 diminished and Minor 6 Diminished.
This is conceived by the interlocking ma6 + dim and m6 + dim chords.

C E G A + D F Ab B

C Eb G A + D F Ab B

This is the language being referenced.

[Groyniad]

What you're talking about is bebop scales. Bebop major (1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7) and bebop melodic minor (1-2-b3-4-5-#5-6-7).
And you've found what makes them work: you can play 8th note runs and keep chord tones on the beats all the time - that's the purpose of the chromatic passing note, separating 5 and 6 in this case.
The 6th counts as a chord tone for these purposes, whether the chord is major or minor, because these two scales are designed for tonic chords in major or minor keys. (Bebop major will also work on the IV chord, but bebop mel.min. only really fits the tonic - although of course it can be employed on the various jazz melodic minor modes.)

this is right - but there's an extra point i'm making

the scales are sort of symmetrical around four points - 1/3/5/6

so any phrase played around one of these 'nodes' can be played around the other three 'nodes' too

[Groyniad]

and its - amazingly - the same for the blues scale

so this is not just barry harris stuff (which i love)

[cosmic gumbo]

so any phrase played around one of these 'nodes' can be played around the other three 'nodes' too

I know about modal is this considered nodal?

[JonR]

this is right - but there's an extra point i'm making

the scales are sort of symmetrical around four points - 1/3/5/6

"Symmetrical" in what sense? The intervals aren't the same.
The only thing I see (in the phrases you used) is alternating chord tones and non-chord tones. That seems good enough (and fits the "bebop scale" bill).

Mind you, I recognise that terminology is a minefield here....

[JonR]

and its - amazingly - the same for the blues scale

How so?

[Groyniad]

blues scale

notes = 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7,1

any phrase played from or around 1, can be 'modulated' into five other versions that start from or move around the other five notes

so:

play b5-5-1-b5-4-b3-1 - original

5 other versions of original:

5-b7-b3-5-b5-4-b3

b7-1-4-b7-5-b5-4

1-b3-b5-1-b7-5-b5

b3-4-5-b3-1-b7-5

4-b5-b7-4-b3-1-b7

back to top

this sort-of-symmetry is - it turns out - totally fundamental to the way the blues scale works

if you include triplet figures (which many groove-cats do very often) then it works wonders too (hear that triplet phrase modulate through the tonality man)

it works with very short phrases - and works with much much longer phrases too

and it works for maj and min 6th diminished scales too

and if i've discovered this crazy internal harmonic symmetry (which i find very hard to believe) - i'm doing pretty damn well

[princeplanet]

The Barry Harris thing with the added b6 , as many know, yields C6 when stressing 1 3 5 7, and Ddim (or E7b9 rootless) when stressing 2 4 6 8.

But in 2010 I started a thread that showed my experiments taking this idea further by adding other notes to a basic major scale to create other octatonic scales, yielding different "dualities":



OCTATONIC SCALES

1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 - c c# d e f g a b - c d f a - c# e g b - Dm7 (F6) - A9 rootless

1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 - c d d# e f g a b - c d# f a - d e g b - F7 - Em7 (G6)

1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 - c d e f f# g a b - c e f# a - d f g b - D9 rootless - G7

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7 - c d e f g g# a b - c e g a - d f g# b - C6 (Am7) - E7b9 rootless

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 - c d e f g a a# b - c e g Bb - d f a b - C7 - G9 rootless

[JonR]

blues scale

notes = 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7,1

any phrase played from or around 1, can be 'modulated' into five other versions that start from or move around the other five notes

so:

play b5-5-1-b5-4-b3-1 - original

5 other versions of original:

5-b7-b3-5-b5-4-b3

b7-1-4-b7-5-b5-4

1-b3-b5-1-b7-5-b5

b3-4-5-b3-1-b7-5

4-b5-b7-4-b3-1-b7

back to top

Sorry, I don't get it. You can play patterns like that with any scale, as far as I can see.
What's special about these?

this sort-of-symmetry is

How is that "symmetrical"? How do you define "symmetry"? (It doesn't fit any definition of symmetry I'm aware of.)
And why is symmetry - however you define it - important in any case?

- it turns out - totally fundamental to the way the blues scale works

It is? I've been playing blues nearly 50 years, I never realised that...
Can you point to examples in classic blues recordings where this kind of thing happens?
If not, what does it have to do with blues, exactly?
Or is this perhaps just some game with scale structure?

and if i've discovered this crazy internal harmonic symmetry (which i find very hard to believe) - i'm doing pretty damn well

Ah, harmonic symmetry... What am I missing here?

[Groyniad]

hey great questions jonr! thanks for the interest

i think the answer is probably to do with when the strong tones in the sound you're playing fall in the bar. what's special about these three scales is that when you transpose a phrase built around the third and play it around the fifth or sixth, the phrases you get fit perfectly with the bar (the strong chord tones fall on the strong parts of the bar). with straight maj and min scales they don't.

with the blues scale isn't it just the case that every tone is (or can happily function as a) strong tone - and that's why these patterns sound right (very often anyway)

and of course i could find endless examples of phrases that involved patterns built in this sort of way.

the obvious thing as soon as you find some effective phrases is that they are so easy to hear and sound so intuitive - and usable!

[Groyniad]

actually if you play through those examples its obvious that something interesting is happening

this is very nice just on its own: 4-b5-b7-4-b3-1-b7 - and its even better to hear that it has some sort of basic musical structure in common with the much more familiar: b5-5-1-b5-4-b3-1

not every phrase is usable in just the same way - but they're all very usable.

[JonR]

hey great questions jonr! thanks for the interest

i think the answer is probably to do with when the strong tones in the sound you're playing fall in the bar. what's special about these three scales is that when you transpose a phrase built around the third and play it around the fifth or sixth, the phrases you get fit perfectly with the bar (the strong chord tones fall on the strong parts of the bar). with straight maj and min scales they don't.

Well, that's what I call the "bebop scale" effect (with the 8-note scales).

with the blues scale isn't it just the case that every tone is (or can happily function as a) strong tone - and that's why these patterns sound right (very often anyway)

Yes, but so do all other kinds of blues scale phrases. (And actually I don't think all your phrases sound good.)

In the case of blues scale, you don't get the same "chord tones on beats" effect (as with those maj6dim and min6dim scales) - because blues scale is not harmonised into chords in the first place.

and of course i could find endless examples of phrases that involved patterns built in this sort of way.

the obvious thing as soon as you find some effective phrases is that they are so easy to hear and sound so intuitive - and usable!

Well, it's good to have a system which reliably produces good-sounding phrases.
I find these things a little mechanical, personally.
For me, it's approaching improvisation from the wrong angle. I listen and copy first. Then if there seem to be patterns or formulas in what I'm hearing, I'll work those out and adapt and apply them (if possible).
(The patterns I tend to find are of a different kind from these scale-structure ones. They tend to be more to do with rhythm, or repetition of motifs.)

[Groyniad]

i think you are being unduly hostile

just pointing to the 'be-bop scale effect' fails to capture the fact that any given rhythmically well-formed phrase can be played in three other parts of the scale (hence the clumsy term 'multi-dimensional scales')

i also approach improvisation by listening and copying first, second, third, fourth and fifth.

but i never suggested i was proposing a whole picture of how to learn to and improve your improvising

didn't i mention in the initial post that i was using this stuff primarily as a way of practicing right hand technique?

and it should be obvious that you can use any phrase you like to generate these permutations - they would not all need to be as mechanical and dull as the one i happened to give as an example

and it should also be obvious that how you might end up using this sort of thing is very open - but repetition of one kind or another (that is patterns) do play some sort of role in jazz improvisation

[JonR]

I think you are being unduly hostile

No offence intended, I was just trying to make sure I understood what you were saying.

just pointing to the 'be-bop scale effect' fails to capture the fact that any given rhythmically well-formed phrase can be played in three other parts of the scale

Indeed. And that applies to pretty much any scale.

didn't i mention in the initial post that i was using this stuff primarily as a way of practicing right hand technique?

Ah I missed that.

and it should be obvious that you can use any phrase you like to generate these permutations - they would not all need to be as mechanical and dull as the one i happened to give as an example

But why would I use phrases to generate permutations? Isn't the opposite the point?

and it should also be obvious that how you might end up using this sort of thing is very open - but repetition of one kind or another (that is patterns) do play some sort of role in jazz improvisation

Sure.
Sorry I came across as hostile, I just have a kind of instinctive suspicion of theory that doesn't seem grounded in what musicians actually do. (I mean, if it is, then that's what I want to hear about. Examples of this kind of thing in jazz recordings.)
Experimentation and invention is good, of course. I'm not suggesting that all we should do is copy those that came before - far from it! And games with scales (even mechanical ones) can often be productive. Maybe I went through a similar stage a long time ago... I shouldn't criticise just because it didn't work for me!

[jzucker]

i think you are being unduly hostile

bwahahaha, the irony. I guess you reap what you sow.

[Groyniad]

No offence intended, I was just trying to make sure I understood what you were saying.
Indeed. And that applies to pretty much any scale.
Ah I missed that.
But why would I use phrases to generate permutations? Isn't the opposite the point?
Sure.
Sorry I came across as hostile, I just have a kind of instinctive suspicion of theory that doesn't seem grounded in what musicians actually do. (I mean, if it is, then that's what I want to hear about. Examples of this kind of thing in jazz recordings.)
Experimentation and invention is good, of course. I'm not suggesting that all we should do is copy those that came before - far from it! And games with scales (even mechanical ones) can often be productive. Maybe I went through a similar stage a long time ago... I shouldn't criticise just because it didn't work for me!

no probs - and thanks again for the interest

i share exactly the suspicion you mention. the first thing i do when i learn a tune is learn the words and learn to sing it (and i've no voice whatsoever). herb ellis convinced me in the first jazz lesson i ever had (his hotlicks video) 'you gotta sing what you play - or play what you sing - it doesn't matter. horn players do this - you just can't hear them 'cause they got the horn in their mouth' (he was not trying to be funny - amazingly).

as i said the drive for this stuff on scales is right hand technique practice - i need studies that are simple enough (so i don't spend the whole time thinking about what i'm playing) so i can focus on right hand, but that are not mere exercises (because they make me lose the will to live).

there are four ways to hear the maj and min 6th dim scale (1-1;3-3;5-5;6-6) and since i've realized this i've been having a lot of fun with both scales. i don't think this is exactly the same with any scale because of the role the 6th plays and because of the rhythmical properties of these two scales.

same holds for the blues scale too (you can - pretty much - hear it as revolving around any and all of its constituent notes - even the flat 5). this has proved fun too.

lots of work still to do to nail this right hand stuff....

[Groyniad]

try this simple one on the blues scale

5-b7-1-b7-5-b7-1

very familiar

and so are all the others - here are the first two or three:

b5-5-b7-5-b5-5-b7

4-b5-5-b5-4-b5-5

b3-4-b5-4-b3-4-b5

----

this is the stuff of humming - its not 'technical' (though the notation or the description may look technical)

[princeplanet]

OCTATONIC SCALES

1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 - c c# d e f g a b - c d f a - c# e g b - Dm7 (F6) - A9 rootless

1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 - c d d# e f g a b - c d# f a - d e g b - F7 - Em7 (G6)

1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 - c d e f f# g a b - c e f# a - d f g b - D9 rootless - G7

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7 - c d e f g g# a b - c e g a - d f g# b - C6 (Am7) - E7b9 rootless

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 - c d e f g a a# b - c e g Bb - d f a b - C7 - G9 rootless

Looking at the above list of "note added" scales, we get iim7, VI7, IV7, iiim7, II7, V7, I6, III7b9, I7. In other words, most of the temporary tonic deviations, turnarounds and Blues progressions can be handled by using these 5 variations and being aware of the 2 "modes" within each (starting odd or even). It's simple, elegant and sounds good. Yet I've never seen this explained or taught anywhere else. Given the penchant (since around 1970) for all things CST, and things like "bebop" scales etc, I find this perplexing. Anyone care to comment? (or should I start another thread??)

[JonR]

Looking at the above list of "note added" scales, we get iim7, VI7, IV7, iiim7, II7, V7, I6, III7b9, I7. In other words, most of the temporary tonic deviations, turnarounds and Blues progressions can be handled by using these 5 variations and being aware of the 2 "modes" within each (starting odd or even). It's simple, elegant and sounds good. Yet I've never seen this explained or taught anywhere else. Given the penchant (since around 1970) for all things CST, and things like "bebop" scales etc, I find this perplexing. Anyone care to comment? (or should I start another thread??)

Could be worth another thread.
Personally, however, I suspect you've not seen this being taught because it's a kind of dead end. It's an accidental result of putting together a couple of related chords.
What "sounds good" matters, of course - it's the sole reliable guide - but the questions (when exploring further) are "what is it about this that sounds good?", or "is it because it sounds very close to something that sounds better?", or "does the sound depend on context (imagined or otherwise)?"
I think the answer to this lies in looking at the double notes - the ones in natural and altered form - and seeing how they behave as both chord tones and tensions: voice-leading tendencies.

Eg, in the first and 4th examples, you've simply got minor key scales with both 7ths included. Dm and A7 are i and V in D minor, and you could choose to add the C to Dm if you want. That doesn't mean an 8-note scale is created, still less that that 8-note scale has any meaning in itself. You're simply operating with the variable 7th degree of the minor key scale.

Same applies to other pairs of chords which seem to produce 8-note scales. Why stop there? Why not take (say) E7-A7-D7 and make a 9-note scale out of those chord tones? Answer: because what's the point? (Music doesn't work like that.)

But I don't want to be too dismissive. There might be other interesting observations to be made...

[princeplanet]

Well yes, I think there are interesting observations, and useful ones too. Let's take a basic I - VI7 - II7 - V7 - I progression. CST says play C maj A mixo, D mixo, G mixo and C maj. If you just practiced running the scales (obv not musical, but for practice sake) then the downbeats will go out of sync into the 2nd octave against each chord (eg - 16th notes). Plenty of people are taught like this. It's faulty. So you add "bebop" passing notes. Now you play C maj bebop, A mixo bebop, D mixo bebop. G mixo bebop back to C.

From my matrix above, you could play:

b6 (start odd)
b2 (even)
b5 (odd)
b7 (even) - or (b5 even)
b6 (odd)

It's simply a different way to conceive the note choices, simply by varying the one major scale. You may say what's the point, the notes end up being similar to the mixo bebop scales.... but they're not the same. Consider A mixo bebop:

a b c# d e f# g g# ....... as compared to b2 (even)

_ b c c# d e f g a

very different. both work and sound fine, but the b2(even) adds just one note to C major! A mixo contains 3 foreign notes! Too complicated? Not really, simply start on a chord tone of A9 and add the accidental (the 3rd, c#). Do the same thing for D9, start on a chord tone and add the f#.

Let's face it, we sound better if we decorate arps more than if we play long scale passages, but for inventing your own lines where you mix embellished arps with scale runs, you can think A9 for chord tones, but C major with an added c# for the "scale tones".