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Scales are the alphabet, Lines are sentences, as an improviser it's better to speak in sentences rather than recite the alphabet.
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06-01-2015 10:33 AM
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I've used CST over the last 20+ years or so.
If was to be critical, which I'm not, my main concern is the lack of documented use of chromatic notes in CST.
EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
I prefer: Chord Scale Theory by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf
The Chord Scale Theory & Jazz Harmony - method - [Language: English] - (ADV 11216): Amazon.co.uk: Richard Graf, Barrie Nettles: 9780206302993: BooksLast edited by GuyBoden; 06-01-2015 at 04:16 PM. Reason: EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
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I've not read that, but I have to say the chapter headings look encouraging - although it's hard to see how CST applies to most of those. (Maybe the book title has it the wrong way round: "Jazz Harmony & Chord Scale Theory" would be better - the latter coming in in the last quarter of the book...)
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
EDIT: having just found (and downloaded) a PDF of this book online, and started reading - and being impressed with the intro - I've already noticed the CST perspective infecting its view of functional harmony. They're putting the wheels on the horse...Last edited by JonR; 06-01-2015 at 11:09 AM.
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For Harmony, you can't beat Ron Miller's "Modal Jazz Composition and Harmony."
It's not a CST book persay, but it's a great look into how tunes that benefit from a CST approach are constructed. A great read for anybody into jazz post 1959.
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I think the issue of chromatic notes in the context of chord scale theory is crucial.There are only twelve notes in the Western scale. If you are playing a C9, you have a C-E-G-Bb-D. That is five out of a possible twelve notes. Missing:
C# - Eb - F - Gb - G# - A - B. So if you are playing a melodic phrase over a C9 chord, are you telling me that you cannot use the chromatics as approach tones or slurs? Kidding, right?
Oh, you need permission...perhaps the consequence of a tin ear?
Last edited by targuit; 06-02-2015 at 04:11 AM.
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I agree, that's what I stated as my main concern too. The lack of documented use of chromatic notes in CST is a concern, but I think it could easily be addressed. Originally Posted by targuit
I think the issue of chromatic notes in the context of chord scale theory is crucial.There are only twelve notes in the Western scale. If you are playing a C9, you have a C-E-G-Bb-D. That is five out of a possible twelve notes. Missing:
C# - Eb - F - Gb - G# - A - B. So if you are playing a melodic phrase over a C9 chord, are you telling me that you cannot use the chromatics as approach tones or slurs? Kidding, right?
Oh, you need permission...perhaps the consequence of a tin ear?
EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.Last edited by GuyBoden; 06-01-2015 at 04:17 PM. Reason: EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
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Imo...
I think it's difficult to create a good solo (or write a good Jazz Head) thinking CST and using only the notes from a scale. And, a student can spend to much time on CST at the expense of a better use of their time which is arpeggios/chord tones.
For jazz, it just seems much easier to think arpeggios/chord tones and fill in the cracks. And, the resulting lines are much more in line with what I hear as traditional jazz vocabulary.
(Even still, I think some time should be spent on CST).
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I guess I'm interested in knowing where in CST chromatics are somehow "dissallowed" or at least "not encouraged?"
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I've never heard of chromatics being "dissallowed" or "not encouraged?" in CST, but I've never seen it documented in CST about how to use chromatics. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Maybe someone who studied at Berklee knows?
EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.Last edited by GuyBoden; 06-01-2015 at 04:17 PM. Reason: EDIT: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
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Why would the use of passing notes be included in the system? That is not what it is for AFAIK Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Jens
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I guess what I'm saying is, they're chromatics...I don't see any method teaching how to use them...aside from the method of listening to the music and copying what the masters did.
I've seen folks talk about using enclosures with arpeggios...but I wonder why anyone would think that's not something they could continue to use when learning CST.
I suppose overall it seems to me that the critics of CST are always like "It's too prescriptive, it says play this over this, etc." And that's really not true.
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Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
"Chapter 4 - Chord Scale Application and Practices
Ways of practicing chord scales as well as various application techniques in using chord scales will be addressed in this chapter. While it is important to have knowledge of chord scales, the techniques of how chord scales are applied are crucial in effective improvisation. Too often, improvised solos sound like the soloist is randomly running up and down scales. The chapter addresses ways of practicing scales that will enable the improviser to better handle various application techniques of chord scales.
Additional topics addressing the application of chord scales include Note Deletion, Adding Chromatic Notes, Note Deletion/Adding Chromatic Passing Notes, Change in Direction of the Line, Use of Space and Use of Syncopation.
Additional topics covered in this chapter include: Practice Routines, Scalar Patterns, Use of Motives/Patterns and Breaking Down the Scale into Two Groups."Last edited by GuyBoden; 06-01-2015 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Berklee's Ed Saindon book covers chromatics with CST.
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I don't think anyone said they were "dissallowed" or at least "not encouraged". Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But, this:
And, from my experience, it is much more likely for beginning students who study CST to 'sound like the soloist is randomly running up and down scales'. It's less likely they'll sound like that if they study with an emphasis on arpeggios/chord tones. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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anyone seen the list of scales syllabus
in the Abersold books ?
mummy ... help me !
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My favourite is the harmonic minor is rarely used in jazz. Odd factoid, strangely persistent. Originally Posted by Jonah
(The harmonic minor and its 5th mode are very common in bebop lines - and swing of course, but I'll be kind and assume Levine has never listened to pre war jazz record in his life.)
Anyway, back to the central topic.
I used to be super anti CST, but my position has mellowed. Incidentally, the thing that kicked me off in the anti CST direction was this interview with John Etheridge:
John Etheridge - interview with Guitar Techniques Magazine
So then I went and practiced arpeggios and embellishments for 14 years.
In fact, I think he overstates the case - scales are very much a part of the jazz tradition before Kind of Blue. But arpeggios are super versatile and handy. There are also strong limitations.
CST theory can be very complicated when people talk about modes, and I quibble about the terminology, but I do think there's something in it. It's kind of in the background. I can hear Charlie Christian and Django even using chord scale stuff - CC using the lydian dominant and Django using the dorian etc. Their ears were guiding them to these notes, not a theory per se.
The other thing is actual scales and scale patterns are really attractive things, as are arpeggios and intervals, but all of these things can become too predictable on their own. A good player will develop a musical balance between predictability and variation.
Personally, I see no advantage in teaching CST early on. I think an emphasis on strong soloing with chord tones is the best approach at the beginning, and the Etheridge article really opened my horizons (I had no teacher at this point).
Metheny puts it well, basics - chord tones and good time.Last edited by christianm77; 06-01-2015 at 06:22 PM.
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I don't think you understand chord-scale theory. Originally Posted by targuit
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Originally Posted by pingu
For those who are unfamiliar with Aebersold play-alongs, here is a link to a 2-page pdf of the scale syllabus included in most (if not all) volumes.
http://jazzbooks.com/mm5/download/FR...e-syllabus.pdf
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
i'm reading Barrie Nettles' book now. written in 1997, two years after Levine's. of course he taught harmony at Berklee for years.
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CST simplified: Chromatic scale is a scale. It goes with all the chords. For any chord, in any context, I leave out the notes I don't like from the chromatic scale and play the others. I play angular lines with very few half tone shifts in order not to sound like I am playing runs. I use the 5th, 4th, 3rd, b3rd, 2nd, 7th, b7th, and 6th of the scale often and use b2nd and b6th (#5th) carefully unless I am playing flamenco etc.
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[QUOTE=targuit;536431]My feeling about CST in terms of criticisms is that it posits that you cannot HEAR the difference between the fundamental chord tones like 1, 3, 5, 7, and extensions versus chromatic notes. You need a defined pool of 'good' notes, ignoring the fact that various scale types involve lowering or raising a specific interval. It is like you need those old "paint by numbers" type blueprint to be a painter rather than using your eyes and visual sensibility to create a painting.
QUOTE]
This was my exact problem a few years ago. A former teacher of mine (a CST advocate) pushed this on me without realizing that I couldn't hear the "butter" notes (1, 3, 5, 7, and all the other color notes). He was just giving me a "pool" of notes to play base on what set of chords I had to deal with. So obviously I was lost. If you can't hear/understand what these notes are trying to tell you, you will never get it.
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I believe Targuit does have a clear understanding of what CST is. You have to learn to hear that C-E-G-Bb-D is the most important notes before you can truly be creative with a scale like the bebop dominant. I can give a beginning student the bebop dominant scale to play over C9 but if that student can't hear what the key notes are chance of belting out an amazing solo is like finding a needle in a haystack. Originally Posted by Jehu
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No. I just don't need permission to play a note. What utter BS! Originally Posted by Jehu
What is the real difference between chanting CST theory suggesting that "here is the approved pool of notes to play over a C9 in a chord progression" and suggesting my solution which is quite simply
"Here are the twelve tones of the Western scale. I give you more choices! I include the chromatics besides the extensions beyond the five notes included in the actual C9 chord, leaving you six choices. One proviso - some of the choices, like the 2b or the 5b may sound better in certain circumstances as embellishments or slurs. Works best for those who have an good ear for music and can also walk and chew gum at the same time."
One might also point out another critical issue raised by someone earlier in this discussion, which is that in fashioning a melodic phrase over a chord progression, the actual role of the chord in question in that progression in relation to the tonic (presuming a tonic exists) is quite important in my opinion. In any case, why should you limit yourself to a "safe" pool of notes to play if you have an ear that tells you "oh, oh.... that 2bnd here really sounds like crap! Maybe I shouldn't play it."
To me CST is more about selling a book to gullible student musicians who are desperately looking for a Holy Grail solution. I'm sure Django and Charlie Christian spent hours practicing their CST exercises.....Last edited by targuit; 06-02-2015 at 03:23 AM.
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CTS is essentially diatonical system but as any diatonical system in the summary of the scales in their actual relization in music in musical processes it involves chromatics
I mean you play D dorian and then D#dorian and it is already chromatics...
It's like in traditional functional tonality - you do not have to study chromatics separately - but if you can master diatonics you automatically involve chroimatics in real musical practice in modulations for example...
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To paraphrase Metheny, "It's pretty hard for me to play any note over a chord that I hear as "out". ...If you have great time, you can play almost anything. Get that groove happening. Rhythm feel - the hardest thing to do on guitar. Difference between Wes, Jim Hall and everyone else is rhythm. Phrasing. Sonny Rollins - lines are easier to play on guitar, unlike Coltrane. Trying to emulate Sonny's rhythm on guitar helped me more than most anything else.
Coltrane - substitutions, tritone and extensions. The rhythmic thing is hard to get on the guitar. Rhythmic power. Need to work with a drummer. Hours of playing with someone good. Drum machine."
Land on good strong notes on strong beats. - Good advice.
Interest comments include the 'triplet feel' issue as opposed to dotted eighths. Not sure I totally agree with him. But something interesting is that when I play improvised music or transcribe a tune in real time on the piano keys to input notes in real time into Sibelius, the software which has a very strict time subdivision much finer than sixteenth notes will often notate the last note in a measure as an anticipation eighth or sixteenth note before the next bar. Which I realized was the natural 'swing feel' in the rhythm of my playing that makes engraved notation look awkward and should not be "engraved" but played for the jazz feel. In order to get good looking notation in real time to a song with Sibelius you have to eliminate any 'swing feel' to your phrasing and play as strictly mechanically as possible. Then when you perform it you put back the swing.
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What's great about CTS - it makes an attempt to make fresh new basis - something like modal harmony - combination of lenear and vertical thinking on the principles different from functional tonality or early modality..
what's bad - it is not real theory and has not been really elaborated... and became quickly profaned... partlu it's connected with jazz practice where there was no theory or written tradition...
So maybe it is as good as Levine has it.. becasue if it bocomes too solidly elaborated it will nnot be jazz any more
(On the contrary in the classics where theory has always been a part of musical mentality)
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