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Should one put accidentals in the beginning of their transcriptions of jazz solos? As far as I can see not many are doing it but I guess doing it will help you think of the main key you're playing in. Please share your insights on this!
Best
Claus
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04-18-2015 03:32 AM
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"Accidentals" are sharps, flats or natural signs that occur in the body of the music, showing differences from the key signature.
If the music is in a key (not all jazz is
), then you should put the key sig at the beginning (and beginning of every line), and then use accidentals in the music where necessary.
In modal jazz, where key signatures may not apply, then a blank key sig may be best, if there is no overall scale involved.
Sometimes a modal piece is largely in just one mode, and then the sig for that mode should be used. The debate then is whether you use a key sig that describes the scale, or one that suggests a parallel key.
E.g., if you had a piece in C dorian mode, the most economical choice is 2 flats (to indicate the Bb and Eb in the mode). But some people would look at those 2 flats and believe they indicate the keys of Bb major or G minor. So those people would probably prefer a C minor key sig (3 flats), even though it means lots of A natural accidentals throughout.
IOW, the choice there depends on who you think will be reading it, and what they expect to see.
Otherwise, in general, best to go for what's most economical - whatever involves the least use of signs and symbols in the notation. Remember the point of notation is clarity and speed of reading. So do whatever enables that.
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In this case my agenda is mostly understanding the music I write down. Understanding the lines and chord progression. I went through a transcription with at friend and ended up understanding 98% of the solos content. (the last 2% are of course magic
) He recommended me putting the transcripion in the tunes main key, in this case All The Things You Are in Ab (four flats). I looked through a few transcriptions on the internet and it looks like they are mostly not set in a key (Example: Bruce Saunders transcriptions on his page).
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Talked about this with my teacher and said a lot of people are using accidentals instead of key signatures these days because its easier to read when the music has a lot altered notes. I'm started to agree reading transcriptions.
In regular reading key signature is nice because if you see an accidental you know it's and altered note.
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I think it depends on the tune. A tune like There Will Never Be Another You really stays in one key most of the time. Or older swing tunes like Honeysuckle Rose even more so. But All The Things You Are, while it starts and resolves in Ab, spends more time in other keys.
And a Wayne Shorter tune, or whatever, forget it.
So, I would use a key signature or not, depending on what would make that transcription easier to read.
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I'm old-school, with respect to training, but I prefer using key signatures + accidentals, where needed. For tunes that modulate to a new key center for the bridge, etc., it's "legal" to change key signatures for that section, if it facilitates reading/comprehension.
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My general rule is use whatever method that causes the least amount of accidentals. Sometimes using a key signature causes there to be twice as many accidentals as there would be without one.
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I like to use key signatures, because it helps understand were the notes are in the key, and makes it easier to sight sing, transpose and lots of other things. In the case of ATTYA, I can see that a key sig might be a bit of a pain, but it's still basically in Ab.
Point taken re: wayne etc - genuinely non-functional harmony is not well catered for in the traditional system. That said, some Wayne tunes still have a quite defined key despite the non-standard chord changes.
That said, I believe it is common in jazz circles NOT to include a key sig - the Omnibook is an example. In this case, it seems peverse as the majority of the tunes are very much one key tunes - Rhythm Changes, Honeysuckle, 12 bar blues etc, in either F or Bb.
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just as long as you do not call a B Cb or a F E# that kind of stuff bugs me.
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Well, it depends whether it's necessary or not, for clarity and sense. In the key of Gb major (or Eb minor), there is a Cb normally - it shouldn't be called B (because there is already a Bb in the scale). And if you want to call the key F# major, then the 7th degree is E#, not F. It makes the notation a whole lot simpler, either way.
Originally Posted by EOE
(I think we can safely disregard the keys of C# and Cb major, which are almost never necessary....)
In other keys I might agree with you, but it could still depend on context.
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For the last... at least 20 + years... sigs have been dumped.
I mean what the point of key sig or accidentals?
1) either to reference the music, the score... help reveal what the composer, arranger etc... is implying musically.
2) make the music or part readable... spell out as easy as possible with least amount of complications. Your not as worried about the harmonic or melodic complete implications.... generally just the moment.
So sure if your composing or arranging a period piece... and D maj is what the music is based on...use a sig., that is the point.
From a pros reading point of view... who cares, it's just part of our job. Read it right the 1st time and don't bitch about the notation. The actual reading of the notes is only part of sight reading right.
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there is no such note as a Cb it does not exist. to call a note Cb is really incorect in any contex. ok i am out for a while now. there are black and white keys on the piano that demastrate this.
Last edited by EOE; 04-26-2015 at 12:17 PM.
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Not even in the key of Gb?
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Not only is Cb a note but it's a key signature.
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F# (alternative choice Gb)
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C# (alternative choice Db)
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb (alternative choice F#)
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb (alternative choice B)
There are things in the world that I wish didn't exist as well.
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I agree - but that's exactly what makes a combination of key sig and accidentals the best policy, usually. Key sig describing the most common overall set of notes, accidentals for any alterations. That's good economy - at least in most music I encounter (YMMV of course Originally Posted by Reg
).
Places where that wouldn't apply - where a blank key sig and accidentals where necessary makes more sense - are where there is no identifiable overall scale; where there is no key. I'm sure you're right that's common in modern jazz - certainly most "modal" jazz.
But it's clearly an exaggeration that "For the last... at least 20 + years... sigs have been dumped" - not everywhere, not even everywhere in jazz. (Maybe in the music you play - but not in the music I play.)
IMO, even in the purest modal jazz, there's a place for key sigs if one set of notes predominates for large sections of a tune, if not overall. Just to indicate a ballpark scale.
Keys sigs don't indicate key, after all. Only certain alterations from ABCDEFG.
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Black and white keys on the piano "demonstrate" no such thing. Originally Posted by EOE
As bako points out, for every "natural" note (ABCDEFG) there is both a sharp and flat version, in order that we can have one of each note (letter) for all 15 major scales. Nothing to do with piano. It's about notation, if nothing else. It's easier to read if every note in a scale has its own line or space. So sometimes (like it or not) we need to call B "Cb", or F "E#" - or even E "Fb" (Cb scale), or C "B#" (C# scale).
Of course, most times we'd use the Db major scale instead of C# major, and B major instead of Cb major. But there are (rare) situations where those 7-sharp or 7-flat keys might be easier to read and make sense of. (With any luck, we'll never encounter them
.)
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I think we should consider also that highly elaborated conventional notation system represents the history of development of classical music language based on functional tonality... and for jazz it is just borrowed and somehow adapted system...I'm sure you're right that's common in modern jazz - certainly most "modal" jazz.
So it's possible to use it but we just have to remember that it is extremely conventional and often do not represent inner relations and logic of musical piece at all... often they just indicate the absolute pitch
By the way it may be quite interesting to think about it... for reading it's not quite good... because it presumes absolute equal temperation... or player should be really closely familiar with the musical language of the piece...
It becomes kind of tabs actuallyLast edited by Jonah; 04-26-2015 at 05:58 PM.
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If the music is functional harmony in a key like B or Gb then not only does one encounter B# and Cb, but you also get double flats and sharps. This is common in classical music.
I don't think jazz musicians are comfortable with or like this type of thing. So there is a toss up between what is functionally correct (for example b6 in the key of Gb is Ebb) and what is easy to read.
Sibelius for example has a tendency to spit out technically correct accidentals that are nonetheless can be a pain in the bum to read. Horn players in particular have issues with transposing parts in sharp keys. When preparing the parts it's worth considering what's important to in any given situation.
In any case as a reader, you should spend your time training in extremes - doing silly things like reading in C# major - so that you can prepare yourself for whatever horrors might await you on the stand. Unless you are doing reading gigs all the time, of course.Last edited by christianm77; 04-26-2015 at 06:00 PM.
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I think in late classical music it depends how composer feels it... in classical the notation described musical concept... and even it music is already very far from clear functional tonality the composer often feels its tensions behind and it is important for him to write it like that... besides it's written tradition.. in German there was even expression 'Augen-Musik'...
Other point is that when you put g# or Ab there's a bitg chance that it will be performed differently...
I was at the rehearsl of Webern's choire work.. the conductor put the triads under the original music and connect them functionally (of course it was not simple I-VI or something).... otherwise choire was lost and out tune...
and I saw in the singers' parts some notes were corrected from say Db to C# becasue they tried to hear these bars in certain key...
And this case I saw it musically justified... Webern still thought in many aspects in traditional way... but there are lots of music where it's not like this and association with classical music only misleads players... on teh other hand it's all so fresh that it is often difficult to say if there is functionality involved on some level or absolutely not....
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Key signatures in my opinion are de rigeur and accidentals are used sparsely. I find it annoying as hell when someone who does not know how to write music creates a transcription without a key sig when it is clear that the tune is in a specific key.
If you are reading music with chords, not to use key sigs creates a hideously unreadable notation. Those of us trained in classical music are used to reading notation in a variety of signatures and thus expect to see a chord in a key written properly. I would suggest that some 95% or more of jazz music is written with a key signature. Even Miles Davis tunes included. Modal music does not automatically imply absence of key signatures. At least not in my experience.
Jay
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Wot like Jamie Aebersold in the Omnibook haha? Originally Posted by targuit
I remember reading in several places that the common practice for jazz is not to use key signatures for transcriptions. I have several professionally published books of transcriptions that don't use key signatures. I find it annoying myself, but it takes all sorts.
In terms of reading practice it's probably best to get used to reading with and without key signatures.
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"I remember reading in several places that the common practice for jazz is not to use key signatures for transcriptions."
Sorry, Christian, but that sounds like pure nonsense, unless the transcription is notated by someone without adequate knowledge of notation. Ever read a Hal Leonard Real Jazz fakebook? Key signatures all the way.
The only exception regularly might be atonal music. Not a lot of that in jazz.Last edited by targuit; 04-27-2015 at 08:51 AM.
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Yes! Prime example! Originally Posted by christianm77
I agree. It all depends on what individual readers are used to, and what they like to see. Originally Posted by christianm77
Right again. If absence of key sigs becomes a convention - or indeed has become a convention in certain circles, as Reg is saying - then we (the rest of us) need to get used to it. Like it not, "common practice rules" Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think as long as key sigs don't start being considered archaic or outmoded (so that any future readers seeing them will wonder what the hell they are!), I'm reasonably relaxed about it.
To be honest, I don't find the lack of key sigs in the Omnibook a major problem; the keys are usually pretty clear (from the chord symbols); but it's still an irritation. It means more accidentals are necessary, which makes for -slightly - slower reading, let alone slower writing if one uses that style. (There are other small things I don't like about that book, which would be too pedantic of me to mention....the value of the book way exceeds its flaws.)
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Someone find me some independent confirmation of this 'trend'. Sounds ridiculous.
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So how do you spell an Ab minor or a Db7 or Gb sus? The keys on the piano have more than one note name. The black key in between G and A can be G# or Ab just like the white key between Bb and C can be B or Cb. Originally Posted by EOE
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