Accidentals in transcriptions?

[targuit]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...yEOrQiQS0LDj3w

From a previous thread. Jensi know where of he speaks. As a classically trained musician, I do as well.

I wonder how many posters on here are trained in music in the classical tradition, as are many big name jazz players actually. Or one could ask any recent Berklee or serious music school grads what the deal is these days. To notate music that is tonal without a key signature makes no sense whatsoever.

[Reg]

Yes practice depends on what circles your in etc... back in the 70's and 80's I composed lots of music for... well just about anything that would pay, But very rarely would a tune or composition be in one key, which is what i use key sigs for, to imply a tonal reference for the composition or tune.

As a player I don't really care, it's part of my job to be able to read whatever is notated. When I'm in the studio or a non performance playing situation... I don't interpret the music, I play as written and if more is needed, I'll get it from the composer or director/ conductor, there is time to discuss. In live situations... I use my ears and adjust when I believe it's needed... I'll hear about it one way or another.... usually with most gigs, non touring etc... my ears work well, wow the music was really happening and in the pocket etc.

So really, getting back to transcriptions... who cares, it's not like your sight reading, or someone is...you might as well use what works for you. If it get published... it will get adjusted as needed etc...

Your either using the entire tune as a reference or your using tonal targets or each bar as the reference.

Relating playing jazz to performing classical music is... you can use whatever words you like, but it's silly.
How many classical gigs involve sight reading music. How many contemporary classical gigs have you played, where your performing new music, or music from the last 50 years.

I've performed many, usually with a rehearsal or two... no key sigs. I'm classically trained and have degrees in composition from Berklee and UCLA, have taught yada yada, who cares.

If the music requires a Key signature... use one, if it doesn't don't.... based on why you do or don't want to use a key signature. When you sight read all the time, it doesn't matter and we like to bitch about notation whether it's right or wrong

[targuit]

Reg - Common practice is "common" for a reason - it is easier to read notation without every other note being a sharp or a flat when the signature covers most of the music written in a tonality. In terms of the jazz tradition, I still say 95% of the songs can and should be written with a key signature. If you are playing atonal jazz, then that common practice would not necessarily apply, but when you take a look at a Hal Leonard Real Fakebook, find me the songs that written as accidentals without a key signature. Good luck.

[destinytot]

Conrad Cork devotes half a page - on p.226, in my copy - of his The New Guide to Harmony with Lego Bricks to a section entitled Key signatures, and why you shouldn't use them. Without reproducing it here, he argues that "open key means you are entirely free to write the accidental that is most meaningful for you in the local situation, not according to WEAM 'correctness'."

The acronym WEAM stands for what Cork calls Western European Art Music, more commonly called classical music. I don't care for it myself, but his reasons are practical and empowering - I took to heart the advice to "have no truck with 'correctness' (should the issue get raised by someone who knows how to read)."

Moreover, Cork makes clear "what a written-down piece of music is for". After distinguishing the situation of the session musician and symphony player from the jazz musician, he writes "But, if you are a jazz musician, the piece of music is the equivalent of a few reminders jotted down on the back of an envelope."

He adds that "the interpretative elements (including note lengths and the actual notes you play, which may or may not be on the lead sheet) are up to you, not someone else." Similarly, on the subject of dynamic phrase markings, he says: "All that is up to you."

[targuit]

And just what are Conrad's qualifications? And what exactly do Lego Bricks have to do with music and notation?

Interpretation is one thing. To reiterate what is know to anyone with a serious background in music knows - if you write in any key other than C and keys like G or F or their relative minors that have few sharps or flats, the value of a key signature is immediately obvious.

If you are playing with Legos, perhaps not so much....

[JonR]

Yes practice depends on what circles your in etc... back in the 70's and 80's I composed lots of music for... well just about anything that would pay, But very rarely would a tune or composition be in one key, which is what i use key sigs for, to imply a tonal reference for the composition or tune.

Exactly. For most of us (I'm guessing ) tonal music is what we play most of the time. Music that's in a key - or maybe modulates between a couple of keys. For me at least, that's not rare at all, and never has been.

Like I said, it's a matter of who's reading - as well as, obviously, the style of the music. In music with no tonal centre - or where determining one particular scale at the outset would make no sense - then a key sig is pointless.

If the music requires a Key signature... use one, if it doesn't don't.... based on why you do or don't want to use a key signature.

I agree.

[JonR]

Conrad Cork devotes half a page - on p.226, in my copy - of his The New Guide to Harmony with Lego Bricks to a section entitled Key signatures, and why you shouldn't use them.

Does he really say you "shouldn't"? Ever?

Without reproducing it here, he argues that "open key means you are entirely free to write the accidental that is most meaningful for you in the local situation, not according to WEAM 'correctness'."

The acronym WEAM stands for what Cork calls Western European Art Music, more commonly called classical music. I don't care for it myself, but his reasons are practical and empowering - I took to heart the advice to "have no truck with 'correctness' (should the issue get raised by someone who knows how to read)."

Well, obviously we can write how we like, and not use a key sig if it has no meaning for what we're writing. But that sneery phrase "WEAM correctness" is a bad sign.
I'm no fan of "Western European Art Music" myself, but I wouldn't feel "empowered" by abandoning key sigs, because I don't feel unduly subjugated by any of WEAM's "rules" anyway. (Maybe I'm lucky not to have had a classical education, so I have nothing to rebel against .)
What is "correct" is whatever is right for the music in question. Not something applied irrelevantly from a book, because we think some kind of authority resides in a book.
I know what key sigs do, and find them useful most of the time. But then I do tend to write music that's in a key (more or less), as well as play music like that: "APM" (American Popular Music, broadly speaking).

Moreover, Cork makes clear "what a written-down piece of music is for". After distinguishing the situation of the session musician and symphony player from the jazz musician, he writes "But, if you are a jazz musician, the piece of music is the equivalent of a few reminders jotted down on the back of an envelope."

True. And a key sig may well be part of that. Doesn't have to be all the time. But often is.

He adds that "the interpretative elements (including note lengths and the actual notes you play, which may or may not be on the lead sheet) are up to you, not someone else." Similarly, on the subject of dynamic phrase markings, he says: "All that is up to you."

Well, jazz musicians hardly need to be told that!
It sounds to me like his intended audience is classical music students who have been browbeaten over the years into believing scores are sacred. Yes, cast off those shackles, brothers!
Throwing out key sigs, though, is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater....

[medblues]

Has anyone tried to convert key signatures with many accidentals to an "imaginary capo" or some less guitar specific but more practical transposition tool ? Such as with horn instrument scores ?

[destinytot]

Does he really say you "shouldn't"? Ever?
Well, obviously we can write how we like, and not use a key sig if it has no meaning for what we're writing. But that sneery phrase "WEAM correctness" is a bad sign.

I totally agree. And yes, I quoted him verbatim.

I do see how open key might be useful for transcribing lines with plenty of colour/alterations, and I really like the thinking behind his system for memorising changes, but his nomenclature goes beyond silly.

But there is a more sinister side to it.

It sounds to me like his intended audience is classical music students who have been browbeaten over the years into believing scores are sacred. Yes, cast off those shackles, brothers!

Quite! I thought better of saying something similar, but I think his WEAM is actually mean-spirited to the point of irresponsible (in a playgound,'tit-for-tat' way).

[Jonah]

Has anyone tried to convert key signatures with many accidentals to an "imaginary capo" or some less guitar specific but more practical transposition tool ? Such as with horn instrument scores ?

it's tabs...

[destinytot]

And just what are Conrad's qualifications? And what exactly do Lego Bricks have to do with music and notation?

Interpretation is one thing. To reiterate what is know to anyone with a serious background in music knows - if you write in any key other than C and keys like G or F or their relative minors that have few sharps or flats, the value of a key signature is immediately obvious.

If you are playing with Legos, perhaps not so much....

The book's worth reading. Cork knows his onions, but he also had an agenda - and a sponsor (Lego).

[grahambop]

Ever read a Hal Leonard Real Jazz fakebook? Key signatures all the way.

Although the Hal Leonard Coltrane Omnibook has none, so not much consistency there!

[targuit]

Well, I just looked at the Miles Davis Omnibook - So What in a 'closer look'. Key signature +. I did not see key signatures in the two songs they permit as a peek at the Coltrane book.

[Jonah]

and what key singanture could be expected in So What?

i see... - it's in E in this omnibook? But F# - C# then is not the key here... it's just transposition of mode...

[grahambop]

Well, I just looked at the Miles Davis Omnibook - So What in a 'closer look'. Key signature +. I did not see key signatures in the two songs they permit as a peek at the Coltrane book.

But Airegin in the same book has no sig! So they're not even consistent in one book.

I have the Coltrane book and there are none in it.

Of course it's more correct to use key signatures. But as far as transcriptions go, some do, some don't.

[grahambop]

and what key singanture could be expected in So What?

i see... - it's in E in this omnibook? But F# - C# then is not the key here... it's just transposition of mode...

Yes that's a bit confusing! It's for trumpet (Bb instrument) so it's written in Em. Then to get the Dorian mode they've put the signature as D major.

[Reg]

Hey targuit
Really...

De Camino... Perico Sambeat
Les Grelots
Made by Walking
Memory and Desire
Mr Demargary
My Dog Spot... H Galper
My Lament... M Schneider
Negative Girl...D Fagen
Not for Nothing... P Stern
November 15 K Garrett
Ode to Ken Saro-Wiwa... A Middleton
One's own Room M Miller
Paladia...S Masakowski
Past Presence
Passion Dance ...McCoy
San Michele A Pasqua
Santurce...E Gomez
Slings and Arrows... Brecker
Small Portions Mulgre Miller
Sno Peas P Markowitz
Steppin Stone S Masakowski
Summer's Gone... Gibbs
Sunk in Love...P Stern
Sweet Rain...P Stern
Take Heart Towner
Time To Smile ..F Redd
Twilight For Nancy...R Ferrante
Wherever You Are...D Zeitlin
When Spring Time Turns To Fall...

Do you ever play any tunes that are not from 100 years ago?

[christianm77]

Yeah I was going to reference the Lego bricks book. Also my Wes Montgomery transcription book includes no keys. This is in fact quite common, if not common practice as I stated.

Conrad Cork's book is a very interesting approach, and his essay regarding WEAM is well worth reading and thought provoking even if I don't agree one hundred percent.

In any case maybe we could have a massive pillow fight/quoits tournament/dance off to decide this issue once and for all. I think in the interests of jazz world peace a convention should be established.

From my own perspective I don't see why if we are transcribing a Charlie Parker solo on Rhythm Changes in Bb say we shouldn't write the solo out in two flats.

[christianm77]

BTW Cork does not include Everything is Awesome in his list of core repertoire.

[Reg]

Does it really matter, most horn players don't seem to care, they tend to not really think and hear harmonically, so the purpose is really just ease of sight reading.

I think if you transcribing something that is basically diatonic... even the improvisation, why not use a key sig.
What can be a pain ... is when key sigs. change... a lot, like when playing musicals or shows, pit wk.

Generally I would believe transcriptions are really more of a tool or process for the musician transcribing. I don't believe many can sight read through transcriptions so really the reading aspect doesn't really matter for the one reading or more likely memorizing and learning from the transcription.

Like what Christian said if your transcribing something in Bb use the key sig. But if you look up and see that the solo has really become Bb7 to G7#9 (Db13#11), Gb7 B7... instead of Bma7, G-7 C-7 F7... what's the point.

Personally the point of transcriptions if for the learning of the one transcribing. I believe the memorizing of someone else doing the transcription as well as the use of slow down tools is waste of time. And throws a wrench in the balance of the learning process.

[fumblefingers]

Does it really matter, most horn players don't seem to care, they tend to not really think and hear harmonically, so the purpose is really just ease of sight reading.

I think if you transcribing something that is basically diatonic... even the improvisation, why not use a key sig.
What can be a pain ... is when key sigs. change... a lot, like when playing musicals or shows, pit wk.

Generally I would believe transcriptions are really more of a tool or process for the musician transcribing. I don't believe many can sight read through transcriptions so really the reading aspect doesn't really matter for the one reading or more likely memorizing and learning from the transcription.

Like what Christian said if your transcribing something in Bb use the key sig. But if you look up and see that the solo has really become Bb7 to G7#9 (Db13#11), Gb7 B7... instead of Bma7, G-7 C-7 F7... what's the point.

Personally the point of transcriptions if for the learning of the one transcribing. I believe the memorizing of someone else doing the transcription as well as the use of slow down tools is waste of time. And throws a wrench in the balance of the learning process.

that at last paragraph sounds like an interesting new thread to me...

[mr. beaumont]

Personally the point of transcriptions if for the learning of the one transcribing. I believe the memorizing of someone else doing the transcription as well as the use of slow down tools is waste of time. And throws a wrench in the balance of the learning process.

It's nice to hear someone else who's anti-slowdown speak up.

It doesn't help you hear. If you can't hear it, transcribe something else until you can. People think they're gonna start with Parker or Sheets of Sound Trane. It ain't gonna happen.

I blame the whole Veruca Salt mentality. "But I want a golden goose NOW, daddy!"

And also a big +1 to the point of transcription. Comparing what you learn from actually doing it compared to looking at someone else's? You can't even compare, really.

[targuit]

In certain circumstances determined by the type of music and tonality issues, I imagine no objection to writing without a key signature. For horn players or others who are melody players rather than polyphonic, it might be fine.

But try writing a chordal polyphonic guitar accompaniment without a key signature. It is a mess to read. If you don't read polyphonic music or have no need to, write it in braille if you want.

And to respond to Reg, I am not a big fan of modal music nor of latter day John Coltrane. The Coltrane I prefer is his ballad playing which was all common practice tonality centered music. Think his collaboration with Johnny Hartmann.

I don't crave music that is difficult or obscure. I like lyrical music that you can dance or make love to. Maybe it is a matter of personal taste.

[Jonah]

many guys just do not get whta they do transcription for...

they think: 'ok I wanna do jazz... I read on the net that if you wanna do jazz you have to practice scales and learn transcription... now I do play scales and I learnt dozen of transcrition and I do not play jazz.. they probably lied to me or what is wrong with me I am probably stuck... I'll go to the forum and thwy will tell me the correct way of playing scales and learning transcription...'

[christianm77]

that at last paragraph sounds like an interesting new thread to me...

Quite. Let's start one!