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Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
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04-21-2015 09:36 PM
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you did understand me
I have all understood
The point is,should I comment different points in his article that are not well explained by him for our community
cheers
HB
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HB
It took me several readings over a couple of weeks of Arau to put together a basic picture of what he is saying..so its not for basic beginners..(Coltrane changes alone scare some pros!)
to realize that the diminished and augmented scales and their use is one of the most confusing aspects in music..for guitarists--an occasional diminished chord and its use in minor thirds is about as far as most delve into their function and use..the term symmetric is lost on many..
now im using the progressions and "thinking" of this type of stuff on my own compositions-so I can make them fit .. to fit it into a "standard" lets say..would be almost an engineering task..you may be able to re-harmonize a tune using Part of some of this type stuff .. but your not going to be able to fit it in your every day pop/rock/or even fusion pieces without some careful foresight..
so while this information is good to share..so is quantum theory..hope you see my point..
pointing out the embedded chords in these scales is a good beginning as many have not seen this analysis in these scales..then the use as subs may be the next "eye opener" ..
melding the dim and aug scales together may be for those who have an appetite for advanced jazz theory..
do try though..see what kind of feedback you get
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Wolf
I'm also Sure that this theory is not made for standards but well for prepared compositions;otherwhise you would have to change deeply the harmonic progressions of those Classic standards.
As you said,the 3 possible subs of II V in the 4T theory coming from the diminished scale would be a good beginning to make a post.
After maybe,the trichords 014 of the Augmented scale and 013 of the diminished scale
When he reveals the 4T C system from the C diminished scale,I think It should have been possible to do that also and easier with the help of the Ab diminished scale,as This scale does give the same results concerning the II V subs toward C.
Moreover,Ab ,as he said,is a link between 3T and 4 T scales...
HBLast edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 04-22-2015 at 06:34 PM.
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Can someone post the different ways that this information is useable to Jazz improvisation? I mean apart from it's use in Coltrane changes.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
example: the diminished scale
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
you will find chords from the 2 4 6 (not the flat6!) & 8th degree of this scale you will have Dmi Fmi Abmi Bmi..now also in the scale are the b7th note of these chords..so you now have Dmi7 Fmi7 etc..and in the scale is the Major 3rd of these chords--so now you have D7 F7 etc..and you can alter the D7 into a D7b5..because the scale also has the flat fifth of these chords..and because the 7b5 is a tri-tone chord..in the diminished scale you have two tri-tone scales-the are 6note scales (hexatonic)
D Eb Gb Ab A C--D7b5 is also Ab7b5 so this scale covers both chords..the other triton scale is:
F Gb A B C Eb -- F7b5 & B7b5...
and there is more!!
so in the place of a dim chord or a 7b9 chord try some runs using any the arpeggios of these chords instead or my fave is the tritone scale is has the essence of the dim scale but its not so predictable..
hope this helps
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princeplanet68961]Can someone post the different ways that this information is useable to Jazz improvisation? I mean apart from it's use in Coltrane changes.
ok..first..please re-read this entire post ..there is a lot of info posted so go slowly..you should be able to pick up a few ideas .. now if your not familiar with diminished and augmented scales and all the chords that are embedded within them..do some research..again in this post you will find some keys to unlock the scales..
example: the diminished scale
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B
1-2 -3 -4-5-- 6-7-8
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
you will find chords from the 2 4 6 (not the flat6!) & 8th degree of this scale you will have Dmi Fmi Abmi Bmi..now also in the scale are the b7th note of these chords..so you now have Dmi7 Fmi7 etc..and in the scale is the Major 3rd of these chords--so now you have D7 F7 etc..and you can alter the D7 into a D7b5..because the scale also has the flat fifth of these chords..and because the 7b5 is a tri-tone chord..in the diminished scale you have two tri-tone scales-the are 6note scales (hexatonic)
D Eb Gb Ab A C--D7b5 is also Ab7b5 so this scale covers both chords..the other triton scale is:
F Gb A B C Eb -- F7b5 & B7b5...
and there is more!!
so in the place of a dim chord or a 7b9 chord try some runs using any the arpeggios of these chords instead or my fave is the tritone scale is has the essence of the dim scale but its not so predictable..
hope this helps
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I guess I'm a little bewildered by the Javier Arau article and wonder if it's worth investing a dozen hours or so just to get my head around it. The opening post gives some interesting usage ideas in Dom, Maj and Min situations, but get the impression some people who use these pitch collections rely on them for inter key excursions in ways that might be of interest.
Basically I'm too lazy () to break it all down and am hoping that someone has decoded it in such a way as to explain how they use this knowledge. Eg- do you use it contexts such as Blues or Standards, or more for non functional harmony or modal based tunes?
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prince..
yes its a bit of work to see all the implications of this kind of stuff..but to me its worth it..
your question on context..for me playing over a blues progression of any kind is wonderful..as your not bound by any restrictions at all..except for resolution of course..
with standards you have to be a bit more careful..but even here..seeing a group of chords as "one" chord and playing over them with this kind of concept brings a sense of freedom in my playing that I have worked long to have..
and of course "non-functional" harmony..fusion for example..is a green light to experiment on the spot..
small example..Progression.. CMa7 Dmi7 Emi7 CMA...if I were to solo over this..I see it as one chord..CMA .. now I can use fragments from the C Aug scale..notes E Eb B Ab G Eb E..or use the E/Bb tritone scale that is embedded in the D diminished scale.. E F Ab Bb B D ... now this will sound cool over the Emi7 also as it has flat five flavors and ends on the b7th of the Emi..then I could resolve back to the tonic with the G tritone-G Ab B Db D F..with G7 flavors move right back to CMA..
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good information, I'll check it out.
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The classic Sears & Robuck bridge on "I Got Rhythm" in Bb
| D7 | D7 | G7 | G7 |
| C7 | C7 | F7 | F7 | to Bb
Becomes:
| A-7 D7 | Eb-7 Ab7 | D-7 G7 | Ab-7 Db7 |
| G-7 C7 | C#-7 F#7 | C-7 F7 | F#-7 B7 | to Bb
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With symmetrical scales you can play them whenever you want, sort of like adding a dash of special effects. You don't have to place the correctly with the underlying harmony, although you can (on a V7 chord is an obvious spot). Their symmetrical quality alone makes them listenable over most any harmony, imo. It's a simple organized way to play outside briefly. You can play "symmetrical intervals" and not have to worry about "outlining" or "associating" too much with the harmony, that over complicates the simplicity of symmetry. My favorite players use it in small tasteful doses and then come back "inside",.
Last edited by rintincop; 09-21-2015 at 04:06 PM.
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am hoping that someone has decoded it in such a way as to explain how they use this knowledge.
I opened this post.
On the advice of Wolflen,I studied for a few months the Javier Arau theory.
I'll try to decode for you very basically the 4 principal points wich ensue from his theory,IMO.
1
replace a V7 by an Augmented Scale on the b9, 9+,5+ or b7 of the name of the v7 chord
take G7 play Ab Augmented Scale;you got: 11 5+ 13 T b9 3
or play Bb Augmented Scale; you got:9+ 11+ 5 b7 7 9
or play Eb Augmented Scale;you got:T 9+ 3 5 5+ 7
or play F Augmented Scale;you got: 9 11 11+ 13 b7 b9
2
Replace a IIm by an Augmented Scale of the same Tonic
take Dm7 ;if you play the D Augmented Scale on Dm7,you got: T b3 3 5 b6 7
3
a IIm chord has common extensions with the Augmented scale on the 9, b5, and b7 of the name of the chord
take a Fm chord.Play on this chord the G,B or Eb Augmented Scale;you got: 9 11 11+ 13 b7, b9
4
bVI major and minor are "structural chords; You can replace the 4 dominants of a Major Root (original diatonic, minor6 substitution, subdominant minor subs and tritonic subs ) by those chords or arpeggios
play Dm/Ab maj /C or Dm/Abmin/C
You'll see that the the bVI min is ,in fact, the altered scale
cheers
HBLast edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 09-22-2015 at 01:55 PM.
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HB...thanks for the tip of the hat..
key point in symmetric harmony-don't make it more difficult than it has to be..reduce duplication and enharmonic reference
In regard to the diminished scale..There are only 3 scales C Db D..now within them are ALL diminished scales by other root names..that is for C dim-Eb Gb and A diminished are included and the notes are the same (inversions if you will).but at different starting points..so to those just beginning to study this type of theory it seems much less confusing if you apply just the C diminished nomenclature to the function.
Same logic to the remaining diminished scales
Db diminished is also E G and Bb diminished
D diminished is also F Ab and B diminished
notice that ALL twelve tones of the chromatic scale are included in these three dim scale roots - as we become more familiar with these scales and start playing them in different positions and in different inversions the root name will have a more logical reason to be used..and as we delve deeper into all the embedded chords in the diminished scale- it is a great benefit to make things less complicated to grasp a difficult concept
Now--this is my take (and some others that have explored this kind of thing..and I get some flack about it..)
The whole/half half/whole diminished scale thing...OK..the C diminished scale starting on C is called a whole/half dim scale
If it starts on B it is called a half/whole B diminished scale - this of course creates an additional 12 diminished scales and fingering and - well a lot of very confused (and frustrated players)
so NO it is NOT a B diminished scale..it is the C diminished scale - starting on the B note..(you have just reduced confusion by 12 diminished scales) suddenly the fingering/positions/inversions do NOT have to be relearned..just as starting a G major scale on F# does not change the name of the scale-it is G Major..and all the positions and inversions now are just one note away from what you already know and identify by name G major!
now apply this type of logic to the augmented scales and theory
now we have only four augmented scales C Db D Eb and the inversions of each scale
C aug includes E and G#/Ab scales
Db aug includes F and A
D aug includes F# and Bb
Eb aug includes G and B
again..note all 12 chromatic notes are included in these scales
so my suggestion is for someone just beginning to study this type of stuff use just the name of the Four aug scales to begin with..and as you become more familiar with using them and their inversions-and their names will be far easier to see the logic for doing so..it will be far less confusing in the beginning..
ok..this is just my take..you may have a very different approach..and it is just as valid..
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Thanks all, I can't wait to find a few spare hours to tinker with this stuff. Meanwhile, could anyone point to specific examples of it's usege in recordings?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
There's a Wayne Shorter recording with James Spalding on alto where James plays the same lick, but I forgot which one it is.
If you check Brecker you'll come across it too, but I don't remember the titles (My roommate when I was studying had all the Brecker Cd's I only have one..)
Jens
Edit: he is called James Spaulding, and it's in the alto solo of the SoothsayerLast edited by JensL; 09-23-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by JensL
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Eef Albers, my old teacher, used it quite often in concerts but I don't have a recording of it.
Jens
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Regarding point I: are you seriously saying that when the piano player hits an altered chord, you play a scale with a natural fifth and a major seventh?
Also, John Taylor (RIP) is the guy to check out for augmented harmony. Ambleside Days for example.
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Progression.. CMa7 Dmi7 Emi7 CMA...if I were to solo over this..I see it as one chord..CMA .. now I can use fragments from the C Aug scale..notes E Eb B Ab G Eb E..or use the E/Bb tritone scale that is embedded in the D diminished scale.. E F Ab Bb B D ... now this will sound cool over the Emi7 also as it has flat five flavors and ends on the b7th of the Emi..
The Tritone Scale
HBLast edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 09-25-2015 at 05:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
HB
Been a fan of Hartig (Stormchaser) for years..love sax lines..the triad exercise is very cool..lots of connecting points to just about everything..
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Originally Posted by wolflen
Jens
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I've been studying this thread since about November and read the Javier Arau paper many times since then at all hours of day and night with insomnia. Is anyone from this original thread still active?
I have tons of questions and can't seem to give up...
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Some of us are still around ... Maybe try and ask the questions and see who responds. I still have a couple myself!
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I find this thread overwhelming. I see the augmented scale pattern in much simpler terms.
There are to symmetrical augmented scales. There harmonies are parallel augmented triads.
I play it over Dominant seventh chords for that special effect.
It is a "special effects" scale in my mind, it creates a certain mood. It gets boring quickly.
I can use it when I want that mood during an episode of free play.
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