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Originally Posted by monk
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08-19-2016 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Bm7b5 = G7
Bm7b5 E7b9 Am6 = G7 G#o7 Am6
On the other hand I am on a heavy baroque harmony kick at the moment, and that's another way of looking at it again. No inversion theory, no functions in the modern sense, just intervallic counterpoint on the bass. Heavy!
In this sense what we call a minor ii-V, is all about the 7 (A) going to #6 (G#) on the B against the static 3rd (D), and then resolving to a 5 3 on A (D-->C, G#-->A, no 5th in this voice leading, unless we expand to 4 voices.)
All in A minor, using the harmonic alterations for a G#-A resolution. There is only movement within the scale of the key in the baroque understanding... Kind of reminds me of Barry Harris actually...Last edited by christianm77; 08-19-2016 at 02:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by monk
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Interesting stuff, by "back door" are you thinking
Dminor (of some type)
G7 (no alterations)
Am6
I see D minor and Bm7b5 as the same thing in this context.
The only thing I didn't quite get is even if you think G7 G#dim Am6
Are you not still having to deal with 3 chords?
As I'm know you know this but the G#dim is just E7b9 right? I'm not sure where this can help?
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Look I done a video! :-)
I'm not thinking about D minor at all. Backdoor means coming from a tone below in my mind. You can put Dm in there, but that's implicit in my opinion. Every V can be given a ii. They are decoration, not structural.
You use G7 as Bm7b5 - bascially treating Bm7b5 as a G9 with no bass note.
That's a G7 with no alterations, G mixolydian/dominant scale and all its associated paraphernalia - the family of four (G7, Bm7b5, Dm7, Fmaj7), bebop scale runs, patterns in thirds, triads and seventh chords with and without chromatic neighbour tones, honeysuckle rose, etc etc, you get the picture.
(I mean you could use G7#11 too, doesn't matter, but let's keep it simple for now.)
When you hit up the dominant (E7b9) or - in fact - wherever you fancy, you raise the G to a G# and keep going. The G and G# are completely flexible and up for grabs. But what the G# does is create more gravity pulling you towards the A minor as opposed to the C major. What we would call an interrupted cadence in classical theory, right?
Take a look at some bop heads and look carefully at what happens over a VI7b9, for instance. Donna Lee is a fantastic example of all of this stuff in operation, I learned a tremendous amount from it.Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2016 at 03:25 PM.
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Christian knows his stuff. His contributions here are very valuable.
Bm7b5 - E7
Barry would say;
"Down the G7 Scale (from the 7th) to the third of E7." (For a one bar phrase)
"Up and down the G7 Scale (to the 7th and down) to the third of E7." (For a two bar phrase)
Note the G7 and E7 scale are a minor third apart; Sisters & Brothers.
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I wrote an exercise on this for a blues (for students.) Here's a link. Check out how the Bo7 and D7b9 chords are handled.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kcjzrr47x2...Blues.pdf?dl=0
EDIT: tab needs looking at - just Sibelius default....Last edited by christianm77; 08-20-2016 at 08:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
That's the real deal.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yes I watched your video I sort of missed the last 10 seconds which I where I feel you say it all.
I see where you are coming from now, I'll have to look into the BH method, I did read through a chapter of two of AK book was very well presented, like anything though it will take me some serious shedding to feel free with it.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yes I noticed Bird and other bop players heavily using this scale and of course various diminished runs a few years before I started seriously working on the Barry Harris approach.
The BH thing can seem a bit awkward at first, but I have learned to appreciate the way it allows you to extend the use of your pre-existing dominant material. In fact, what you learn is not new material itself but the a new way to resolve. It would be the same with the IV7-I and bII7-I cadences, for example.
In contrast, the way I was looking at it before - mode of V of harmonic minor, required me to learn a while new bunch of material and practice it through a new scale. Instead, you learn to resolve up a tone (a common thing in bop for major keys, too) and get used to moving that one note up a semitone.Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2016 at 05:50 AM.
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This is what Barry Harris and Roni Ben-Hur refer to as the "minor's dominant" in their materials(?)
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Okay I watched that video and having gone through that BH stuff myself ( through Alan and Ronnie's books ) but at a much lower level as a player, I tend to think of Ways to make it much more simple for me.
The standard ii-V for me becomes ii-7--ii-6. ( ii-6= vii-7b5, note that the V7 and the iiv7b5 have the same basic interchangeable functionality in tonal music .).
Anytime I see a dominant chord , I can play around it in a few different ways --- (q) either go up a half step and play a minor six, or go down one full step and play a m7b5. Thus instead of, in the key of F, instead of a C7, play a Db-6 ( or even D-69) or a Bbm7b5. These chords are interchangeable , (2) sub the G minor sixth or the E-7b5 for the C7 (3) sub the C° for the C7. (4) straight out tritone sub of the secondary dominant, or Gb7.
Even this is a shit load of stuff for me to really think about and internalize. I am nowhere near finished internalizing it.
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Originally Posted by David B
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So I have a question of how to practice the basic premise of Barry Harris's method: dominance to consonance. The expression of the fundamental 5-1 cadence.
Let's say we limit ourselves to, for example the key of F. And let's further add the following limitations: working with a particular region of the fretboard and A particular string set. Let's for example limit ourselves to drop 2, F major, first four strings. Let's limit ourselves further by concentrating the tonic chord into the voice dispersion of 1563 ( basically third position ) and 3615 ( sixth position )
I can immediately think of six separate grips to express the dominant V dissonance ( various degrees ) against this F6 chord ---
C7
C°
G°
Db-6
G-6
Gb7
All of these grips are readily available and interchangeable in the given positions we have defined, and often, changing one for the other will only change a note or have a minor change on the voicing.
How would you imagine practicing the six chords together, either as block chords, as block chords that can be arpeggiated, or as lines ?
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Thats just for starters.
BUT - that's not the point. We are playing melodies that move in thirds, triads, chords or steps through the scale and threading them through the changes. The harmony is to some extent emergent from that. You practice melodies and language.Last edited by christianm77; 08-22-2016 at 08:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I think I will try, as an experimentstion, basically what Pasquale demonstrated in his master class videos, but use all the various groups and chord changes and substitutions, not just the M-m6 chords against the diminished ( I.e., the harmonized chord scales) -----> completely master all the grips to make them completely interchangeable at whim without thinking and to reduce and simplify the issue to a a basic right-hand problem and work on right hand development and practice all sorts of arpeggio patterns against all of the interchangeable grips and ( envelope, please ) ...................................see what they sound like.
Pasquale hybrid picks Chuck Wayne style, I'll just have to do the PIMA .
By the way, Pasqualle just released a third master class. At the same time that the associated website was hacked and destroyed. Apparently it's being rebuilt.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by christianm77
A whole tone below (Bb melodic minor)
A half step above (C# MM)
A perfect forth above (F MM)
A perfect fifth above (G MM)
All this information is useless unless it is fully internalized
It's impossible to half ass and dabble in it, you got to get into the muck of it all and remain in the swamp for a good long time
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Still following that conversation... well done you two Christian that video sounded great. NSJ you're probably a lot further ahead than I am, but if I may venture a suggestion, why not work out some some limitations. Maybe according to context, letting the melodic and harmonic "world" a particular tune lives in narrow down the possibilities and taking it from there, so that different tunes illustrate different possibilities. Or maybe I'm talking out of my *** and you've already thought about this.
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The best way I have found to get my head round the Barry Harris chord possibilities is to play around with it on one tune at a time. Usually something fairly simple e.g. I've been doing Blue Bossa the last few days.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Last edited by christianm77; 08-23-2016 at 10:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I guess as someone who has only been playing for a few years, I still have to focus on everything and get as much in.
But it's true, obviously, it takes a long time to internalize any essential concept . I practiced a shit load, months on end, of playing intervals and dyads, and now I feel like I can play thirds, sixths, tenths, thirteens and tritones, somewhat naturally, without thinking consciously. I practiced a shit load of the drop two and drop three Barry Harris harmonized diminished scale. It's only starting to feel natural Now, but only just .
to widen the pallet in any significant and meaningful way that sort of becomes ingrained and a part of one's playing takes a long long long time. At least for me .
The collateral fact is that I understand and can navigate around the fingerboard easier, which will make other tasks less difficult . Sometimes, half the job is really becoming familiar with the workspace .
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Originally Posted by NSJ
If you can decide what to practice and focus on it that is half the battle. I have this problem myself. That's why having a teacher is helpful....
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http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Wes%20...Techniques.pdf
Thought some may find this interesting.
KA PAF info please
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