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  1. #1

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    Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I'd like to get some feedback from those of you who have dedicated some time to Mr. Harris's system. I recently bought a book by Alan Kingstone titled "The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar, and am curious to find out if the substantial effort required to shift my cognitive approach to chord theory will be well invested.

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  3. #2

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    There have been numerous threads and Alan Kingstone is a member here and posts in those threads. I'd say there are quite a few Barry Harris videos on Youtube and to check those out to get an idea of his approach, if it is interesting then investing in his materials will probably be worth for you.

  4. #3

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    What I find most intriguing about the method is learning to intersperse diminished chords seamlessly into any harmonic context. When properly executed, it sounds like seamless chordal motion. I hope to eventually reach that level.

  5. #4

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    O
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    What I find most intriguing about the method is learning to intersperse diminished chords seamlessly into any harmonic context. When properly executed, it sounds like seamless chordal motion. I hope to eventually reach that level.
    yes that is how I think of it a seamless harmonized chordscale of the major or minor 6th drop 2 or drop 3 inversions fleshed out with a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6th and M7th degree of the scale -- so on can transition from inversion to inversion of the chord via a diminished chord to create a sense of movement and interest.

    so take a C6 chord

    root position and inversions (N=4)
    1563
    3615
    5136
    6351

    link these chords via a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6 and M7 of the C scale

    D dim
    F dim
    Ab dim
    B dim

    thwn think about possible chords that share the same notes and voicings
    IM6 = vim7
    im6 ='vim7b5

    etc

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    O

    yes that is how I think of it a seamless harmonized chordscale of the major or minor 6th drop 2 or drop 3 inversions fleshed out with a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6th and M7th degree of the scale -- so on can transition from inversion to inversion of the chord via a diminished chord to create a sense of movement and interest.

    so take a C6 chord

    root position and inversions (N=4)
    1563
    3615
    5136
    6351

    link these chords via a diminished chord at the 2nd, 4th, m6 and M7 of the C scale

    D dim
    F dim
    Ab dim
    B dim

    thwn think about possible chords that share the same notes and voicings
    IM6 = vim7
    im6 ='vim7b5

    etc
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?
    The m6 is added. Why is it added?

    it makes the distance between a M2, P4, m6, and M7 the same and equidistant--everything is a minor 3rd apart,

    Then think of the significance of a minor 3rd to the diminished chord

    the notes of a D dim, F dim, Ab dim, and B dim are exactly the same. Any note can name the chord.

    i havent checked Alan's book out but I'm sure it offers a detailed explanation as to the further significance of this.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I always have to simplify things or relate them to something else I already know so see if this makes sense.

    What I'm seeing is the Wes Montgomery chord scale thing, take a chord play inversions on chord tones and diminished on non-chord tones. The one thing different is the Ab, but Ab is note added in a Bebop major scale. So is that another way to view it or am I missing something?
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.
    I wrote out the notes and the Ab is add to create the diminished passing chord other wise it's all C6 and inversion. So the note is added to create the diminished, it's also used in soloing to straighten out the rhythm. Then Bebopper's are also talking about b9's on V and again the Ab considering C6 is tonic.

    I not doubting anything Barry says just trying to make sense of it for myself.

  10. #9

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    It's more than Wes's conception of harmony. I have the book an have been wading through its waters. There is some interesting notes on expanding the diminished chord and thinking of major and minor 6th chords with diminished extensions. But similar to Wes, it is all about creating movement.

  11. #10

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    Wondering if anyone has gotten the DVD's on improvisation that Barry has out. I am planning on going to his workshops over the summer, hoping that he is still in good health. The videos on youtube are quite interesting. Right now, I am really really really digging Willie Thomas's stuff over at jazzeveryone.com. Like, wow!

  12. #11

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    It's worth noting that the added #5/b6 step (G#/Ab in a C major scale) is not only the b9 of the V chord, it's also the leading note of the relative minor. Considering that C6=Am7, the diminished chords that can be derived from the C bebop major scale (D°, F°, Ab°, B° in this instance) can act as dominants to either the I chord (C6) or its relative minor (Am7). This isn't mentioned too often but of course that same set of diminished chords may also act as an interchange to each I chord a minor 3rd from the tonic (C, Eb, Gb, A) and their relative minors (A-7, C-7, Eb-7, F#-7).

    Another way of thinking about this is that Barry Harris considers there to be both a bebop major scale (C, D, E, F, G, G#/Ab, A, B) and a bebop minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, G#/Ab, A, B). The bebop minor again contains an added note between the 5th and 6th steps but here it applies to an ascending form of the melodic minor. The only difference with the derived minor chords to those outlined above is that with the bebop minor the I chord is always a minor VI (C-6, Eb-6, F#-6, A-6) rather than -7. The basic family remains the same. Therefore:

    D°, F°, Ab°, B° may act as a V chord to C6 & A-6/7, Eb6 & C-6/7, Gb6 & Eb-6/7 or A6 & F#-6/7.

    I haven't studied with Barry Harris although I own books by both Alan Kingstone and Roni Ben-Hur on the subject. I'd be curious to know Barry's opinion on the conventional diminished half/whole and whole/half scales. Likewise, does he consider the standard bebop dominant scale (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, F#) and its related minor form (D, E, F, F#, G, A, B, C) to have much significance?
    Last edited by PMB; 04-07-2015 at 11:31 PM.

  13. #12

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    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?
    for me, easier to think of basic subs to remember the I6 when you know that I6= IVM9 = vim7

  15. #14

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    Adding the m6 is to put all the chord tones on the strong beat. As a scale (prior to the harmonization), this is simply to straighten it out. It can be called a bebop scale...but ultimately I think that complicates the simplicity of it and makes it seem like a spooky, un-understandable thing that takes years and decades to grasp. It's pretty simple. In bebop, not all 8th notes are created equal. The down beat is the king and the upbeat is more like the peasant in servitude to it's king, the master. So if we're playing even eighth notes (not even like 'straight' - as opposed to swing - even like constant), the eighth notes that fall with the click of the metronome (if we're playing against quarter notes) we would want to be strong sounding notes...chord tones, resolution points, etc. If we're playing off the click, on the and of the beat...then non-chord tones, chromatic passing tones, approach notes, and tension notes work great. Of course this is an over-generalization. Great players who've internalized this sense of rhythmic melodicism can and do (did) then experiment with this and take it beyond that academic perfection of it. But it's a good goal post to head towards for people who haven't learned to feel this way.

    Adding the Ab/G# lines it up so that the C6 chord tones fall on the strong beat, and the non-chord tones and chromatic passing tones fall on the and of the beat.

    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)
    +: d (non chord tone - weak beat)
    2: E (3RD - STRONG BEAT)
    +: f (non chord tone - weak beat)
    3: G (5TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: g# (non chord tone - weak beat)
    4: A (6TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: b (non chord tone - weak beat)
    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)

    It all lines up perfectly this way with the 8th notes and with filling the full four beat measure. Mix that in with the fact that all the non chord tones are a minor 3rd apart, and the magic of the Maj6/dim7 inversion kicks in. Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, when you stack the notes in 3rds to harmonize the scale, you get the symmetry of those 2 chords moving back and forth through their inversions. Brilliant little way of analyzing and creating the tonality.

  16. #15

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    As someone who successfully studied Alan's book with the sole point of re-programming how I saw the fretboard and comp'd changes, I have this piece of advice...

    1. Stop thinking about converting the chords.

    2. Stop thinking of them as an optional tool for a tool bag.

    4. Think of them as how you will completely harmonize an entire song.

    5. Harmonize entire songs using this method.

    6. Stop thinking!!!!!!!!

    This method is now how I see the entire fretboard. When I read CMj7/Am7/Dm7/G7 I still see it as those chords and think of it as those chords but I might play Em7/Eo7/Dm7/Do7 and thus I'm visually seeing it as CMaj7/A7b9/Dm7/G7b9. It all depends on how I want to voice lead it.

    BUT I'M NOT THINKING ABOUT IT. (Isn't this where you want to get to???)

    I have those inversion under my fingers and I can just play the voice leading I hear. Sometimes I have no idea what I played over a two measure because I was just voice leading through the changes and not thinking about this inversion and that substitution.

    This book has had the most impact on my playing than anything else. I am not some wonder kid, I just spent any entire year with the sole focus of getting these inversion down without thinking about them.
    Last edited by TheGrandWazoo; 04-09-2015 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #16
    Ordered my copy today. This approach has been talked about so much recently...

    My curiosity has to be satisfied I guess. :-)

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    The down beat is the king and the upbeat is more like the peasant in servitude to it's king, the master.
    The day isn't over yet, but I think "best use of metaphor in theory discussion" may go to you for today. :-)

  19. #18

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    Hahaha...thanks Matt. Though I can't take full credit. The king and peasant thing was my addition...but I stole the "not all 8th notes are created equal" thing from Peter Bernstein. He was got on me about my rhythmic phrasing.

    But if no one else steps up to offer another metaphor today, I suppose I'll humbly accept this most prestigious honor. I'd like to thank my parents, Miles Davis, and God.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    for me, easier to think of basic subs to remember the I6 when you know that I6= IVM9 = vim7
    Thanks for that. How do you conceptualize the Im6 and its subs?

  21. #20

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    Im6 = IV9 = vim7b5

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Im6 = IV9 = vim7b5
    exactly. The b3 which differentiates the I6 from the i6 becomes a b7 in the IV chord and a b5 in the vi chord.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    As I'm working my way through Mr. Kingstone's book, I ask myself why Mr. Harris chose to look at m7 chords as 6 chords and m7-5 chords as m6 chords. It seems to me that it would be easier to apply the techniques by keeping the names consistent while integrating the diminished chords and the minor inversions.

    Why is it beneficial to think in terms of 6th chords?
    It's easier to play over a min6 chord, conceptually, than a min7b5.

  24. #23

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    The fact that one diminished chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords really gives one options. Say, in the key of C, think of the G7 as a G7b9. That automatically opens up 4 diminished chords you can interchange and replace in lieu of the G7b9--B dim, D dim, F dim and Ab dim.

    And for the usual ii chord (Dm7)--you can use F6.
    And for the vii chord (Bm7b5) you can Dm6
    And for the iii chord (Em7) you can use G6

    lots of possibilities for chromatic root movement in the bass using this info.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    The fact that one diminished chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords really gives one options. Say, in the key of C, think of the G7 as a G7b9. That automatically opens up 4 diminished chords you can interchange and replace in lieu of the G7b9--B dim, D dim, F dim and Ab dim.

    And for the usual ii chord (Dm7)--you can use F6.
    And for the vii chord (Bm7b5) you can Dm6
    And for the iii chord (Em7) you can use G6

    lots of possibilities for chromatic root movement in the bass using this info.

    That's the kind of stuff the 2nd Barry Finnerty book gets into the pluralities in scales and chords. Simple example the note C is in 6 major scale, then all the modes of those major scale, then can move on to symmetric scale possibilities. But C sounds different depending on which degree of the scale it is. Then when he gets into pluralities in chords things expand like crazy. Music is full of pluralities and learning how to use them to your advantage.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlainJazz
    I'm glad you asked that question because this is exactly the way I've understood it too. Are we missing something. When people talk about m6 are they talking about the Wes thing but using inversions of the m7b5 chords? I'm trying hard to get the difference between Barry Harris' method and the Wes technique of adding dim chords for the non-diatonic tones.
    Geez was I ignorant. This technique is SO much more than that. I've been working on this for about two weeks now using the Kingstone book. The harmonic possibilities are truly blowing my mind. I need to add that I am definitely not a book-learning person. I don't think I've ever bought a book that I got anything useful out of. Until now! The idea of "borrowing" from the diminished is so obvious but I never thought of it and it is just brilliant.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Adding the m6 is to put all the chord tones on the strong beat. As a scale (prior to the harmonization), this is simply to straighten it out. It can be called a bebop scale...but ultimately I think that complicates the simplicity of it and makes it seem like a spooky, un-understandable thing that takes years and decades to grasp. It's pretty simple. In bebop, not all 8th notes are created equal. The down beat is the king and the upbeat is more like the peasant in servitude to it's king, the master. So if we're playing even eighth notes (not even like 'straight' - as opposed to swing - even like constant), the eighth notes that fall with the click of the metronome (if we're playing against quarter notes) we would want to be strong sounding notes...chord tones, resolution points, etc. If we're playing off the click, on the and of the beat...then non-chord tones, chromatic passing tones, approach notes, and tension notes work great. Of course this is an over-generalization. Great players who've internalized this sense of rhythmic melodicism can and do (did) then experiment with this and take it beyond that academic perfection of it. But it's a good goal post to head towards for people who haven't learned to feel this way.

    Adding the Ab/G# lines it up so that the C6 chord tones fall on the strong beat, and the non-chord tones and chromatic passing tones fall on the and of the beat.

    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)
    +: d (non chord tone - weak beat)
    2: E (3RD - STRONG BEAT)
    +: f (non chord tone - weak beat)
    3: G (5TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: g# (non chord tone - weak beat)
    4: A (6TH - STRONG BEAT)
    +: b (non chord tone - weak beat)
    1: C (ROOT - STRONG BEAT)

    It all lines up perfectly this way with the 8th notes and with filling the full four beat measure. Mix that in with the fact that all the non chord tones are a minor 3rd apart, and the magic of the Maj6/dim7 inversion kicks in. Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, when you stack the notes in 3rds to harmonize the scale, you get the symmetry of those 2 chords moving back and forth through their inversions. Brilliant little way of analyzing and creating the tonality.
    fabulous explication lemons !
    there's a lot of great stuff in there

  28. #27

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    Anyone like to use half dim chords as "joiners" instead of full dim? An ex- Cmaj 7 - Bm7b5 - Cmaj 7 etc up through all the inversions. Sure, the half dim doesn't "lean" as hard as the full dim, but still provides movement, but with that slightly different flavour some may prefer?

  29. #28

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    I don't think the half diminished will always work. If you use the concept of borrowing from the adjacent chord and the fact that the diminished can be subbed by 4 dominant chords, the possibilities are endless. Sometimes the connector will indeed be half diminished based on what you are "borrowing"

  30. #29

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    I have studied with Barry a little bit, and I just want to say this:

    His scales for harmony (the major and minor 6th diminished and so on) are very much divorced in his teaching from the added note scales. To summarise:

    1) Harmony is based around the 8 note scales - Major6, Minor6, 7, 7b5 - diminished.
    2) Melody is based around scales we are familiar with - major, melodic minor, dominant, chromatic, whole tone, with an emphasis on placing chord tones on the beat. This can be done with added notes in the case of stepwise motion.

    The two things are pretty separate

    The term 'bebop scale' comes from different theorists - David Baker, for example.

    At least, that's how I understand it based on a few workshops. If Mr Kingstone or anyone disagrees with that, then I'd go with what they say ;-)

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I have studied with Barry a little bit, and I just want to say this:

    His scales for harmony (the major and minor 6th diminished and so on) are very much divorced in his teaching from the added note scales. To summarise:

    1) Harmony is based around the 8 note scales - Major6, Minor6, 7, 7b5 - diminished.
    2) Melody is based around scales we are familiar with - major, melodic minor, dominant, chromatic, whole tone, with an emphasis on placing chord tones on the beat. This can be done with added notes in the case of stepwise motion.

    The two things are pretty separate

    The term 'bebop scale' comes from different theorists - David Baker, for example.

    At least, that's how I understand it based on a few workshops. If Mr Kingstone or anyone disagrees with that, then I'd go with what they say ;-)
    Studying with Barry, I'd like to know if he ever discussed the importance of tune melody. Obviously, when you understand the chord scales and understand all the possibilities with the related diminished chords, you could potentially reharm any tune to the extreme. How high of regard does he hold the notes of the melody in the tune to the chord subs/harmonizations he's substituting via his method. Would he be inclined to push the dissonances and notes that would clash, or would he always essentially obey the melody notes and work his subs around those notes?

    I've also seen his vids where he calls out errors in fake/real books. So to me, it seems as if he would try to use this method to relate all subs to the melody notes and roots.

    A good tune for this is all of me, because of all the dominants. You can go absolute wild with the diminished chords, but the arpeggio style melody would obviously clash with certain subs. Thanks for any info!

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordswing
    Studying with Barry, I'd like to know if he ever discussed the importance of tune melody. Obviously, when you understand the chord scales and understand all the possibilities with the related diminished chords, you could potentially reharm any tune to the extreme. How high of regard does he hold the notes of the melody in the tune to the chord subs/harmonizations he's substituting via his method. Would he be inclined to push the dissonances and notes that would clash, or would he always essentially obey the melody notes and work his subs around those notes?

    I've also seen his vids where he calls out errors in fake/real books. So to me, it seems as if he would try to use this method to relate all subs to the melody notes and roots.

    A good tune for this is all of me, because of all the dominants. You can go absolute wild with the diminished chords, but the arpeggio style melody would obviously clash with certain subs. Thanks for any info!
    Not sure if I'm qualified to answer this one. I'm sure Barry would urge students to check out the original versions of the songs, and isn't to keen on the 'ii-V' heavy versions in common usage today... Anyone?

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordswing
    Studying with Barry, I'd like to know if he ever discussed the importance of tune melody. Obviously, when you understand the chord scales and understand all the possibilities with the related diminished chords, you could potentially reharm any tune to the extreme. How high of regard does he hold the notes of the melody in the tune to the chord subs/harmonizations he's substituting via his method. Would he be inclined to push the dissonances and notes that would clash, or would he always essentially obey the melody notes and work his subs around those notes?

    I've also seen his vids where he calls out errors in fake/real books. So to me, it seems as if he would try to use this method to relate all subs to the melody notes and roots.

    A good tune for this is all of me, because of all the dominants. You can go absolute wild with the diminished chords, but the arpeggio style melody would obviously clash with certain subs. Thanks for any info!

    Absolutely! Barry spends a lot of time with singers working on melody and of course this translates to instrumental interpretation. He does however treat the singers as instruments urging them to know the Dominant Scales, Diminished Chords and Whole Tone Scales. Barry does not create dissonance for dissonance sake as far as I can tell.

  34. #33

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    There was one masterclass I saw where he was talking about the importance of knowing exactly which scale every chord you play over comes from. So he was saying something to the effect of in a Bb Blues that you shouldnt play D dorian over the vi chord, that d dorian comes from C, so that D locrian is actually correct because its in Eb, (Bb7 is V). So I guess even though this diminished theory could potentially take you to any key, knowing the melody and what complements it the best is what should be the goal. This is pretty clear in his recordings.

    A lot of the modern guys are stretching things so far. This theory could potentially do the same. But I guess musicality and modesty is Barry's goal with this theory. I'd love to hear him talk on this subject.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordswing
    There was one masterclass I saw where he was talking about the importance of knowing exactly which scale every chord you play over comes from. So he was saying something to the effect of in a Bb Blues that you shouldnt play D dorian over the vi chord, that d dorian comes from C, so that D locrian is actually correct because its in Eb, (Bb7 is V). So I guess even though this diminished theory could potentially take you to any key, knowing the melody and what complements it the best is what should be the goal. This is pretty clear in his recordings.

    A lot of the modern guys are stretching things so far. This theory could potentially do the same. But I guess musicality and modesty is Barry's goal with this theory. I'd love to hear him talk on this subject.

    lordswing: I highly recommend the Workshop Videos for Barry's teaching if you can't attend a class. A lifetime of study.

    Barry never speaks Greek (Ionian/Dorion/Mixolydian) though he tried valiantly to speak Italian at workshops in Rome I attended. (I really relied on my ear that week).

    Barry never speaks of modes.

    His primary scale study is the Dominant Scale. John Coltrane visited Barry in Detroit and went away with some new ideas.

    As is being alluded to elsewhere on this board, jazz is not overly complex though we tend to make it that way.

    Barry's teaching is very straight forward yet with endless implications.

    For instance:

    Dm7b5 / G7

    = Bb7 into G7 or Db7 (all Dominant Scales are a Minor Third apart)

  36. #35

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    Yes I fully understand the range of possibilities dealing with dominant and diminished qualities. I see his chromatic things in the dominant scale. Is that what you're referring to as far as Coltranes studies? Or the minor thirds things?

    Maybe if he comes to New Orleans I'd go to see a class. Id love to buy the DVDs but just cannot afford it. Maybe one day in the future... I have my BA in Jazz. I love that I've found this stuff. It's a great new perspective.

    Martino is big on these concepts. His jazz minor scale is actually the alt scale played m3rds apart. So he plays c7alt=a7alt=eb7alt...

  37. #36

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    Pasquale Grasso has been teaching the Barry Harris method on teaching tours with the Chris Byars/Ari Rowland band. I caught a couple of Chris&Ari's workshops on their prevoious tours (before Pasquale joined them), just by chance really!

    Then I bought Alan Kingstone's book (just discovered he's on this site) , and the 2 Howard Rees books / videos, all of which I recommend to anyone interested in getting a solid musical framework for bebop.

    Anyway, here's Pasquale putting this method/framework (ie the 6th diminished scale (aka bebop scale) and its chord scale) into practice.


  38. #37

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    Drop 2 chord voicings by Randy Vincent is like the Barry Harris method on steroids for guitar players, plus it's well organized and easy to understand. The idea of constructing a chordal bebop major scale using alternating drop2 inversions with diminished chords is just a fraction of what's covered.

    If you have not seen this book, it's worth taking a look at it. You can review the contents online at Amazon.

    Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book: Randy Vincent: 9781883217648: Amazon.com: Books

    Bebop scales, chords and extensions, enclosures and chromatic approach chords, modal scales and cycles, comping lines, and how to practice them. Plus altering and tweaking scales and chords so that they can sound modern or classic.

    Yes, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    Music notation, tab, and cd examples.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosko
    Drop 2 chord voicings by Randy Vincent is like the Barry Harris method on steroids for guitar players, plus it's well organized and easy to understand. The idea of constructing a chordal bebop major scale using alternating drop2 inversions with diminished chords is just a fraction of what's covered.

    If you have not seen this book, it's worth taking a look at it. You can review the contents online at Amazon.

    Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book: Randy Vincent: 9781883217648: Amazon.com: Books

    Bebop scales, chords and extensions, enclosures and chromatic approach chords, modal scales and cycles, comping lines, and how to practice them. Plus altering and tweaking scales and chords so that they can sound modern or classic.

    Yes, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    Music notation, tab, and cd examples.
    Have you actually studied the Barry Harris method?

    The idea of constructing a chordal bebop major scale using alternating drop2 inversions with diminished chords is just a fraction of what's covered.

    I'm sure the book is good.

    There is a tremendous amount of disinformation and rubbish talked about the BH approach, I suppose largely because people have perhaps gone to a few workshops covering the basics but haven't been able to go further with it, and are (understandably) unwilling to cough up 100 dollars for each DVD set. They are really good and worth it IMO, but it a hefty investment.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-11-2016 at 01:39 PM.

  40. #39

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    I have all Vincent's book. All them are superb but I think that Three note voicings and beyond is the best, an absolute gem.
    The Drop 2 book is the guitar version of the Jazz Piano book by Mark Levine; it is an easier approach that does´t contents all harmonic wisdom from Harris.

    We have three wonderful threads about Harris:
    Barry and Wes.
    Barry practice method.
    This one.

    With a detailed reading of these one can learn a lot. Would be great to unify these contents.

  41. #40

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    I did not buy his DVD set, I have watched some of his videos and read articles by other jazz educators that discuss his approach. Vincent's book appeals to me for the reasons already stated, and especially for the compact, concise, low cost book that it is.

    I don't know anything about the disinformation and rubbish about his approach.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosko
    I did not buy his DVD set, I have watched some of his videos and read articles by other jazz educators that discuss his approach. Vincent's book appeals to me for the reasons already stated, and especially for the compact, concise, low cost book that it is.

    I don't know anything about the disinformation and rubbish about his approach.
    That's probably a bit harsh, it's not intentional disinformation.

    But BH's system is pretty much a comprehensive approach to the music of the bop era. If you get into it, you can spend years exploring it, even though the core of the approach is actually pretty straightforward and practical.

    The confusion between his harmonic teaching and the improvisational approach is a common misconception, and people spread a lot of disinformation unwittingly, because they haven't fully grasped how BH's teaching works.
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-11-2016 at 05:16 PM.

  43. #42

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    No harshness intended; I was focusing on harmony, not his improvisational approach.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosko
    No harshness intended; I was focusing on harmony, not his improvisational approach.
    I meant I was being a bit harsh.

  45. #44

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    [QUOTE=jordanklemons;519108] hi Jordan sorry to raise this dont cant get what you mean by




    ( Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, )

    are the odd notes 1 3 5 6 C E G A

    and the even notes 2 4 b6 7 D F G# B

    ie what are the odd notes what are the even note

    thanks

    D

  46. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    ( Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, )

    are the odd notes 1 3 5 6 C E G A

    and the even notes 2 4 b6 7 D F G# B
    I think you've got it.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban
    hi Jordan sorry to raise this dont cant get what you mean by


    ( Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, )

    are the odd notes 1 3 5 6 C E G A

    and the even notes 2 4 b6 7 D F G# B

    ie what are the odd notes what are the even note

    thanks

    D
    Yeah, that's what I meant. I am by no means a BH expert here. I've studied it a bit and been to a class/played with Barry a couple of times, but his method is definitely not my area of expertise. But yeah, as far as I understand it, that's the idea.

    If you're seriously interested in digging deeper into his method, I'd probably recommend not taking my word though... and seeking out Barry himself or someone who's been a student of his for a long time and really 'owns' this stuff.

  48. #47

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    I found these "Barry Harris Harmony Revealed" examples online. The "special scale" I recognize as Barry's chromatic scale applied to the C major scale. But I don't recognize the voicing system shown for it...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rintincop; 02-09-2020 at 09:53 PM.

  49. #48

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    I have never seen Barry teach this scale harmonically, but I just tried and it works well. I played it 3 note voicings. I got the concept and moved it up the scale on my own, so I don’t know if that document is correct. Cool concept though.

  50. #49

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    I think the author has misinterpreted the meaning of drop 3. In a close-voiced triad the 3rd from the top would be the root... which is silly because there is no mechanical benefit to doing that. I would call what I see in the transcription 2nd inversion triads.

  51. #50

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    Isn't he simply harmonizing each step of Barry's chromatic scale? Each of the four voices follows Barry's rule for C chromatic. He starts with a 2nd inversion C6 and in the first measure:

    Soprano: c c# d d#
    Alto: a a# b d (as per the rule)
    Tenor: e g (as per the rule) f f#
    Bass: g g# a a#


    What am I missing?