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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
there's a lot of great stuff in there
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05-15-2015 04:07 PM
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Anyone like to use half dim chords as "joiners" instead of full dim? An ex- Cmaj 7 - Bm7b5 - Cmaj 7 etc up through all the inversions. Sure, the half dim doesn't "lean" as hard as the full dim, but still provides movement, but with that slightly different flavour some may prefer?
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I don't think the half diminished will always work. If you use the concept of borrowing from the adjacent chord and the fact that the diminished can be subbed by 4 dominant chords, the possibilities are endless. Sometimes the connector will indeed be half diminished based on what you are "borrowing"
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I have studied with Barry a little bit, and I just want to say this:
His scales for harmony (the major and minor 6th diminished and so on) are very much divorced in his teaching from the added note scales. To summarise:
1) Harmony is based around the 8 note scales - Major6, Minor6, 7, 7b5 - diminished.
2) Melody is based around scales we are familiar with - major, melodic minor, dominant, chromatic, whole tone, with an emphasis on placing chord tones on the beat. This can be done with added notes in the case of stepwise motion.
The two things are pretty separate
The term 'bebop scale' comes from different theorists - David Baker, for example.
At least, that's how I understand it based on a few workshops. If Mr Kingstone or anyone disagrees with that, then I'd go with what they say ;-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I've also seen his vids where he calls out errors in fake/real books. So to me, it seems as if he would try to use this method to relate all subs to the melody notes and roots.
A good tune for this is all of me, because of all the dominants. You can go absolute wild with the diminished chords, but the arpeggio style melody would obviously clash with certain subs. Thanks for any info!
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Originally Posted by lordswing
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Originally Posted by lordswing
Absolutely! Barry spends a lot of time with singers working on melody and of course this translates to instrumental interpretation. He does however treat the singers as instruments urging them to know the Dominant Scales, Diminished Chords and Whole Tone Scales. Barry does not create dissonance for dissonance sake as far as I can tell.
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There was one masterclass I saw where he was talking about the importance of knowing exactly which scale every chord you play over comes from. So he was saying something to the effect of in a Bb Blues that you shouldnt play D dorian over the vi chord, that d dorian comes from C, so that D locrian is actually correct because its in Eb, (Bb7 is V). So I guess even though this diminished theory could potentially take you to any key, knowing the melody and what complements it the best is what should be the goal. This is pretty clear in his recordings.
A lot of the modern guys are stretching things so far. This theory could potentially do the same. But I guess musicality and modesty is Barry's goal with this theory. I'd love to hear him talk on this subject.
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Originally Posted by lordswing
lordswing: I highly recommend the Workshop Videos for Barry's teaching if you can't attend a class. A lifetime of study.
Barry never speaks Greek (Ionian/Dorion/Mixolydian) though he tried valiantly to speak Italian at workshops in Rome I attended. (I really relied on my ear that week).
Barry never speaks of modes.
His primary scale study is the Dominant Scale. John Coltrane visited Barry in Detroit and went away with some new ideas.
As is being alluded to elsewhere on this board, jazz is not overly complex though we tend to make it that way.
Barry's teaching is very straight forward yet with endless implications.
For instance:
Dm7b5 / G7
= Bb7 into G7 or Db7 (all Dominant Scales are a Minor Third apart)
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Yes I fully understand the range of possibilities dealing with dominant and diminished qualities. I see his chromatic things in the dominant scale. Is that what you're referring to as far as Coltranes studies? Or the minor thirds things?
Maybe if he comes to New Orleans I'd go to see a class. Id love to buy the DVDs but just cannot afford it. Maybe one day in the future... I have my BA in Jazz. I love that I've found this stuff. It's a great new perspective.
Martino is big on these concepts. His jazz minor scale is actually the alt scale played m3rds apart. So he plays c7alt=a7alt=eb7alt...
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Pasquale Grasso has been teaching the Barry Harris method on teaching tours with the Chris Byars/Ari Rowland band. I caught a couple of Chris&Ari's workshops on their prevoious tours (before Pasquale joined them), just by chance really!
Then I bought Alan Kingstone's book (just discovered he's on this site) , and the 2 Howard Rees books / videos, all of which I recommend to anyone interested in getting a solid musical framework for bebop.
Anyway, here's Pasquale putting this method/framework (ie the 6th diminished scale (aka bebop scale) and its chord scale) into practice.
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Drop 2 chord voicings by Randy Vincent is like the Barry Harris method on steroids for guitar players, plus it's well organized and easy to understand. The idea of constructing a chordal bebop major scale using alternating drop2 inversions with diminished chords is just a fraction of what's covered.
If you have not seen this book, it's worth taking a look at it. You can review the contents online at Amazon.
Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book: Randy Vincent: 9781883217648: Amazon.com: Books
Bebop scales, chords and extensions, enclosures and chromatic approach chords, modal scales and cycles, comping lines, and how to practice them. Plus altering and tweaking scales and chords so that they can sound modern or classic.
Yes, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Music notation, tab, and cd examples.
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Originally Posted by Bosko
The idea of constructing a chordal bebop major scale using alternating drop2 inversions with diminished chords is just a fraction of what's covered.
I'm sure the book is good.
There is a tremendous amount of disinformation and rubbish talked about the BH approach, I suppose largely because people have perhaps gone to a few workshops covering the basics but haven't been able to go further with it, and are (understandably) unwilling to cough up 100 dollars for each DVD set. They are really good and worth it IMO, but it a hefty investment.Last edited by christianm77; 04-11-2016 at 01:39 PM.
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I have all Vincent's book. All them are superb but I think that Three note voicings and beyond is the best, an absolute gem.
The Drop 2 book is the guitar version of the Jazz Piano book by Mark Levine; it is an easier approach that does´t contents all harmonic wisdom from Harris.
We have three wonderful threads about Harris:
Barry and Wes.
Barry practice method.
This one.
With a detailed reading of these one can learn a lot. Would be great to unify these contents.
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I did not buy his DVD set, I have watched some of his videos and read articles by other jazz educators that discuss his approach. Vincent's book appeals to me for the reasons already stated, and especially for the compact, concise, low cost book that it is.
I don't know anything about the disinformation and rubbish about his approach.
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Originally Posted by Bosko
But BH's system is pretty much a comprehensive approach to the music of the bop era. If you get into it, you can spend years exploring it, even though the core of the approach is actually pretty straightforward and practical.
The confusion between his harmonic teaching and the improvisational approach is a common misconception, and people spread a lot of disinformation unwittingly, because they haven't fully grasped how BH's teaching works.Last edited by christianm77; 04-11-2016 at 05:16 PM.
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No harshness intended; I was focusing on harmony, not his improvisational approach.
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Originally Posted by Bosko
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[QUOTE=jordanklemons;519108] hi Jordan sorry to raise this dont cant get what you mean by
( Because all odd notes are from the C6 chord and all even notes are from the related dim7 chord, )
are the odd notes 1 3 5 6 C E G A
and the even notes 2 4 b6 7 D F G# B
ie what are the odd notes what are the even note
thanks
D
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Originally Posted by Durban
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Originally Posted by Durban
If you're seriously interested in digging deeper into his method, I'd probably recommend not taking my word though... and seeking out Barry himself or someone who's been a student of his for a long time and really 'owns' this stuff.
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I found these "Barry Harris Harmony Revealed" examples online. The "special scale" I recognize as Barry's chromatic scale applied to the C major scale. But I don't recognize the voicing system shown for it...
Last edited by rintincop; 02-09-2020 at 09:53 PM.
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I have never seen Barry teach this scale harmonically, but I just tried and it works well. I played it 3 note voicings. I got the concept and moved it up the scale on my own, so I don’t know if that document is correct. Cool concept though.
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I think the author has misinterpreted the meaning of drop 3. In a close-voiced triad the 3rd from the top would be the root... which is silly because there is no mechanical benefit to doing that. I would call what I see in the transcription 2nd inversion triads.
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Isn't he simply harmonizing each step of Barry's chromatic scale? Each of the four voices follows Barry's rule for C chromatic. He starts with a 2nd inversion C6 and in the first measure:
Soprano: c c# d d#
Alto: a a# b d (as per the rule)
Tenor: e g (as per the rule) f f#
Bass: g g# a a#
What am I missing?
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