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Play the open 6th string. This is E. Sound it as you touch it at the 12th fret, and the harmonic overtone will be E, an octave higher than the open E string. Next sound open E string as you touch it at the 7th fret. The harmonic overtone will be B, the perfect 5th overtone, sounding an octave and a perfect 5th higher than the open E string. Next touch the open E string at the 5th fret as you sound it. This overtone will be E two octaves higher than the open E string. Next, sound the open E string as you touch it at the 9th fret. This will give you G# the major 3rd overtone, sounding two octaves and a major 3rd above the open E string. Next, sound the major 3rd overtone on the 6th string 9th fret. Leave it sounding, and play this E minor chord voicing at the 7th fret. E, 5th string 7th fret. B, 4th string 9th fret, E, 3rd string 9th fret. G, 2nd string 8th fret. If you haven’t mistakenly muted the G# overtone you left sounding at the 9th fret, open 6th string, you will hear the clash between the G# overtone and the G natural in the E minor chord. Next, sound the G# overtone and make the same chord E major, E, 5th string 7th fret. B, 4th string 9th fret, E, 3rd string 9th fret. G#, 2nd string 9th fret. You’ll hear how much more positive it sounds. To those of you who fail this experiment, there are hearing aids that fit so deep in the ear canal, that no body will ever know. You won’t be laughed at as you stop your chorus to turn up the dial on your hearing aid control.
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02-26-2015 11:18 AM
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Well, I always feel good after someone lectures out of nowhere.
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I think most people on this forum know this without going through the experiment. It's true that most instruments have overtones (harmonics) of perfect 5ths and perfect 3rds, so when you are playing a chord with flat 3rd or flat 5th there is some inherent dissonance between the chord notes and overtones of the root.
There's also a bit of dissonance when you play a major chord, since the string playing the root will have an overtone of the perfect 5th, while the string fingered for the 5th of the chord is playing a tempered 5th. Modern ears have become accustomed to the inherent dissonance of tempered tuning.
I think part of the reason many jazz guitarists prefer dark tones and flatwound strings is that overtones are reduced, minimizing these unintended dissonances.
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But if played bass and spent time in Jaco land then there you get into all the between fret harmonic especially around the 3rd and 4th fret. The harmonic master has to be Steve Bailey.
Originally Posted by KIRKP
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The OP wasn't very clear about the point of that experiment. I assumed it was to illustrate that that there is some dissonance in a minor triad when the harmonic content of the instrument is taken into account. It's an interesting bit of trivia, but I don't think it's audible unless one goes to great lengths to exaggerate upper harmonics as he's doing in the experiment.
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Yea!!, an intelligent answer for a change. Quite true. I'm talking about hearing within yourself as you listen. On guitar A 5th played on the 6th & 5th is in tune. play it between the 6th and 4th strings, and it's flat. this bugs me no end. But hey man, it's your guitar. It's like loving your wife even though she does have buck teeth. I'm glad most folks here know what I'm trying to say. I look upon these things as the basis of what makes music function tonally.
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Now that's interesting...not something I've thought about...true for all notes? I might pose a fretted G on the sixth versus the open fourth string D as being just as in tune as that same interval on adjacent strings?
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The guitar is all about compromises, the tempered scale causes some anomlies with the perfect intervals because
the overtones are not tempered.
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A few points to add to this discussion:
The third harmonic of a note is very close to the tempered perfect fifth one octave above; it's within 2 cents. Can we really hear that? Enough to detect some dissonance when playing a (tempered) interval of a fifth?
Major and minor triads each contain a minor and major third interval, so whatever dissonance is inherent in a minor third interval is there in a major triad as well.
The general point under discussion here seems to be that the way we perceive the quality of intervals, triads etc can be attributed in part to the overtone series of the notes involved. I'm not sure I buy into that, or see how it applies to jazz harmony, which typically involves extended chord structures. Take a nice fat G13th chord, like 3 x 3 4 5 x. There's a lot of overtone clashes there with the B F tritone and the E F semitone. Yet (at least to my ears) this chord isn't sad or tense or in any way dissonant. I guess I'm not convinced that the overtones matter that much in how we process the sound of different chords.
The obvious experiment to test this out would be to use a tone generator to sound various intervals using pure tones, no harmonics, and see if our perception of these intervals changes in the absence of any overtones. My hunch is that major will still sound major and minor will still sound minor, but I'll keep an open mind. Wish I had the equipment to do this! Maybe some of my physicist friends at school can help.
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If you're hearing the G13 in a C Ionian tonality, Key of C, as a Five Chord, the E sounds as an anticipation of the major 3rd of that mode. If you're hearing the G13 chord as a Flat Two chord in F# Phrygian, Key of D, the F natural or E# sounds as a leading tone into the F# Phrygian tonal Center, and the E natural sounds as a blue note. Inner anticipation of where a chord is going has a lot to do with how it makes you feel.
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The open position on the guitar is the only place where a perfect 5th on the 6th and 4th strings G & D sounds in tune The same is true on the 5th and 3rd strings C & G, the 4th and 2nd strings E & B, and the 3rd and 1st strings A & E. As you move these 5ths up the neck, on these same string sets, and the strings get higher off the frets. the fifth intervals on these string sets get flatter. It's bugged me for years. All I can do is ignore it.
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Dave, Originally Posted by DaveWoods
Could what you're describing perhaps be an intonation issue? I just had my acoustic archtop setup by my trusted luthier. The intonation up around the 12 fret is dead on. When I play intervals, chords etc up there, the notes stay true (I checked this with a Boss TU12EX tuner, which has a needle gauge, not LEDs, and so reveals even slight tuning errors). In any case, if your intervals up the neck are slightly flat, I don't see how that could be caused by overtones of the notes involved. As you suggest, it might be a function of how high your action is, or maybe string gauge. Hopefully we'll hear from some other forum members here. Too bad this thread isn't getting more attention; next time you should include the magic word "L5CES" in your thread title.
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If you know what you're doing, you can make intervallic adjustments that render 12-note chords that have no dissonances.
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That's definitely weird. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
Like Ren, I'd say it was an intonation issue, but the fact you're using the same interval up the same strings makes it hard to explain. How much discrepancy is there? Have you measured it? (checked with a tuner?)
There are other more interesting aspects to the harmonics issue, vs equal temperament. Eg, that 5x harmonic on the 6th E string (frets 4, 9 or 16) is a G#, but a pure one, 14 cents flat of what your tuner will tell you is "correct". It should not sound the same as the 4th fret on your top E (or 9th fret on the B)! Play both together, they should clash noticeably.Last edited by JonR; 03-03-2015 at 10:02 AM.
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Violins and Cellos are played in just intonation, which means exactly in tune with the overtones. Exactly in tune to me means the way I hear them in my head before I pick up the guitar. The guitar because of the frets, is a cross between well tempered tuning, and just intonation (hope I've got the definition right) Believe it or not, at one point in time violins and cellos had frets like the guitar.
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And you think that's a reliable reference? Originally Posted by DaveWoods
(Your ear as you play is the only true reference. What's in your head beforehand is neither here nor there.)
Not really. The frets are an attempt at equal temperament (not well temperament, and certainly not just intonation); but the vicissitudes of string inharmonicity and playing technique mean there's always some wriggle room either side of the pitch the fret is representing. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
Those with good enough ears (and who care enough) can adjust intonation to some extent while playing, simply by how they fret the notes.
Yes, you mean viols. The frets were movable, so as to be able play in tune (or as near as possible) in different keys. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
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Dave, Originally Posted by DaveWoods
Is that really true about violins and cellos? As JonR points out above, the 5th harmonic is 14 cents flat from the corresponding equally tempered tone, and that's an audible difference. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't know the first thing about violin playing, it's just hard for me to imagine that if, say, if a violin and piano (which is equally tempered) are played together, that your major thirds could be that far off. And what about other notes of the major scale?
As for the guitar, my understanding is that when properly set-up a guitar is equally tempered, meaning that the ratio of the frequencies between the same interval in different keys is the same, regardless where played on the neck. At least, that's the ideal. If it were a compromise between that and some type of well-tempered or just intonation system, then all the keys would sound different.
PS. I made this same mistake in a different thread a few days ago; well-tempered is not the same as equal-tempered. I think you meant to say the latter.Last edited by Ren; 03-03-2015 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Looks like JonR beat me to the punch.
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Yes. At least if they are playing in string consorts, such as quartets. They all tune to each other as they play, at least if their ears are good enough to do so. Originally Posted by Ren
And of course there is always vibrato, to blur the issue somewhat....
It's the same with unaccompanied choirs. They will tend to sing pure chords, intuitively, by tuning to each other, rather than out of tune equal tempered chords.
Of course, as soon as an equal tempered monstrosity such as a piano muscles in on the scene, then everyone better tune to that, or else....
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JonR,
Interesting. So orchestral string players need to be able to adjust their intonation depending on the situation (ie if a piano or worse, a guitar is in the mix)? What about wind instruments? Same deal?
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To some degree yes. Originally Posted by Ren
Horn players are accustomed to having to "lip" notes into tune - it's part of basic embouchure technique.
(Soprano sax is notoriously difficult in this respect, tending to play sharp in its upper register; it's just the nature of the beast, a metal cone with holes in... I've heard at least one amateur soprano player who just didn't have the knack, or maybe the ears...)
Naturally, as well as being able to tune to ET or some local pure intonation (as they hear fit), they can also use lipping for expressive note bending - just as we can push our strings about!
Last edited by JonR; 03-03-2015 at 12:28 PM.
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On the subject of equal temperament - and vibrato - I remember a few years ago reading a nice comment by (I think) an Indian or Asian musician or musicologist who said European music (because based on equal temperament) was always out of tune (by design), and that's why we liked all our frantic chord progressions, running around various different kinds of dissonance, because it distracted attention from the basic instability at the very root of it.
European music is always fundamentally restless. It has nowhere to settle, so makes a virtue of movement.
In that light, the classical use of vibrato (on any voice or instrument that is capable of it) can be seen as a way of smearing the pitches, to mask their out-of-tuneness. If a singer wobbles around either side of a target pitch, you'll never know the target pitch is actually out of tune - somewhere within that vibrato is the in-tune pitch!
You'll notice that the usual practice with vibrato is to increase it on long note. As if the longer a steady note is held, the more we'll start to notice that it's out of tune - whoops, better move it around a bit.
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Yes, I think what I hear in my head as I'm playing is a reliable reference as I'm playing. I trust my inner ear. Do you trust yours?
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