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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I should have defended myself with slash chords
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02-25-2015 05:36 PM
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Got me on that one, I can't bounce back with a snappy rejoinder. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
David
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I didn't know the Bates Motel Band had a singer.
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I guess you've never had a sad feeling.
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It's all good, there is fine line between musician and electrician. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Which one is more radioactive? I want to be safe, or ill become very sad. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
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If we stop with the jokes for a sec, the opening premise for why a minor triad sounds sad is flawed. Here's why:
You state that the major 3rd overtone is present over the C note, which clashes against the Eb, causing the instability that registeres sadness in us as an emotional response. Now, while it's true to say that most instruments "radiate" an overtone series (different for each instrument of course), what about a synthesizer playing pure sine waves? No overtones there, yet a major triad will still sound "happier" to most than a minor.
Without getting into the known Psychology (let alone the vast unknown), you could argue that even in the absence of said overtones, they are still expected, or implied (through conditioning?), so the b3 will always sound "disturbed". But what if a human never heard musical notes and you played him/her a sine wave major 3rd and a sine wave minor 3rd?
How do you know for sure the min 3rd will sound "sadder"? Sure the science of Simple Harmonic Motion can be contorted to fit our conditioned world view of why things affect us emotionally the way they do, but there remain serious problems there also. For example, if you table up the prioritised overtone series, I think you find the b7 occurring before the maj 7th. Also there may be a raised 4th before the P4th- (is this the basis for Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept?).
Finally, I refer you to non western music, and the countless example of arbitrary scales, think Pelog in Indonesia for example where the chosen scale tones are all arbitrary placings of tuned pitches that bear no correlation to our Western system.These mathematically "incorrect" pitches and intervals still manage to convey the full range of emotions to it's people.
So yeah, there's a fly in the ointment for ya
And if you want more food for thought regarding the breakdown in the relationship between pure math and western music, go here:
Pythagorean comma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Yeah, I knew it! How do you like them apples!? Originally Posted by princeplanet
If we stop with the jokes for a sec, the opening premise for why a minor triad sounds sad is flawed. Here's why:
You state that the major 3rd overtone is present over the C note, which clashes against the Eb, causing the instability that registeres sadness in us as an emotional response. Now, while it's true to say that most instruments "radiate" an overtone series (different for each instrument of course), what about a synthesizer playing pure sine waves? No overtones there, yet a major triad will still sound "happier" to most than a minor.
Without getting into the known Psychology (let alone the vast unknown), you could argue that even in the absence of said overtones, they are still expected, or implied (through conditioning?), so the b3 will always sound "disturbed". But what if a human never heard musical notes and you played him/her a sine wave major 3rd and a sine wave minor 3rd?
How do you know for sure the min 3rd will sound "sadder"? Sure the science of Simple Harmonic Motion can be contorted to fit our conditioned world view of why things affect us emotionally the way they do, but there remain serious problems there also. For example, if you table up the prioritised overtone series, I think you find the b7 occurring before the maj 7th. Also there may be a raised 4th before the P4th- (is this the basis for Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept?).
Finally, I refer you to non western music, and the countless example of arbitrary scales, think Pelog in Indonesia for example where the chosen scale tones are all arbitrary placings of tuned pitches that bear no correlation to our Western system.These mathematically "incorrect" pitches and intervals still manage to convey the full range of emotions to it's people.
So yeah, there's a fly in the ointment for ya And if you want more food for thought regarding the breakdown in the relationship between pure math and western music, go here:
Pythagorean comma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Other words would have been better, I apologize. C Major is (C E G). C minor is (C Eb G) The major 3rd (E) generated by the Overtone Series clashes with the minor 3rd (Eb) in the chord. This lessens the power of the of the overtones generated by the C minor chord. The clash between the E natural generated by the overtones, and the E flat in the in the C minor Chord is felt in the body to me, as sad, or something's wrong. Probably everybody would have a different description of the feeling.
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Feel better now Anton? This Overtone explanation was shown to me by Grant Fletcher, my composition teacher at Arizona State University. Here's an experiment that might help you. Touch the 6th string of your guitar at the 4th fret as you sound the open 6th string. The open 6th string is an E. Try to remember that. if you're successful, and if not, keep trying, you'll hear the major 3rd overtone G#. Next, leaving the G# overtone on the 6th string sounding play this E minor Triad voicing at the 7th fret. E (5th string) B (4th string) E (3rd string) G natural (2nd string). You'll hear the clash between the G#overtone on the open E string, and the G natural in the E minor Chord. You have my sympathy. Having to think everything you've written here before you play the next note must slow you down a lot
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as pp said ...
sine waves do not have overtones
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They are the sociopaths of the tone world. Originally Posted by pingu
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The fact that digital music has no overtones is it's biggest drawback. This is why vinyl recordings are making a comeback. I was into composing digitally for awhile. I can say this, no matter how sophisticated a sample is, without overtones, it just does not sound like the real thing.
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Why Pygmies Aren't Scared By The 'Psycho' Theme : Goats and Soda : NPR
"The emotional cues in songs, which Westerners pick up on, didn't mean the same to the Pygmies: They didn't hear the shrieking strings of the Psycho theme as stressful or the minor chords in Wagner's Tristan as sad.
"The emotional response to this music was all over the map," says neuroscientist Stephen McAdams of McGill University, who co-authored the study with Fernando. "The idea of music being a universal language, I don't really buy it. Some aspects of the emotional response are very specific to that culture."
Next Fernando had the Pygmies rate their own culture's music for its emotional quality. Across the board, the Pygmies said all their songs made them feel good — even a song composed for a funeral.
"All of their music is generally upbeat, playful," says McAdams. The culture just doesn't have sad songs, he says.
"In the West, we expect to have negative emotions sometimes. We even seek them sometimes," McAdams says. "When I'm feeling sad, and I really want to enhance it, I'll put on some sad music."
But in the Pygmy culture, sad feelings aren't accepted. "They generally try to get rid of negative emotions by singing happy music," McAdams says. "One of the main roles of music in their culture is to evacuate bad feelings."
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Digitization doesn't remove overtones. It's digital processing that removes or screws around with harmonic content, especially lossy compression (mp3, etc.). Originally Posted by DaveWoods
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[QUOTE=dasein;506014]Why Pygmies Aren't Scared By The 'Psycho' Theme : Goats and Soda : NPR
"The emotional cues in songs, which Westerners pick up on, didn't mean the same to the Pygmies: They didn't hear the shrieking strings of the Psycho theme as stressful or the minor chords in Wagner's Tristan as sad.
"The emotional response to this music was all over the map," says neuroscientist Stephen McAdams of McGill University, who co-authored the study with Fernando. "The idea of music being a universal language, I don't really buy it. Some aspects of the emotional response are very specific to that culture."
QUOTE]
Very interesting. Thanks for that.
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A chord is 2 or more notes. Just playing C G gives a chord. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
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So why doesn't the interval of a fourth sound sad? It clashes by one semitone with the E natural overtone, same as the minor third interval does. Originally Posted by DaveWoods
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I would say this. A G7 chord in a blues G B D F, the Db (flatted 5th) played against it is one of the saddest notes you can play.
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I want to hear more about pygmies.
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Pygmies love them power chords. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Oh dear, we're going in circles. See reply #18. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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After listening to that, I think I'll go make a cup of coffee. I could really use a good "Pygmie Up" right now.
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That's a very good question. To me I feel a minor triad as sad (for want of a myriad of other descriptions) this is because of the lessening of the overtones generated by the chord. This overtone clash is felt rather than heard. The 4th to me adds a mysterious feeling to the sound. I can't wait to hear the barrage of puns I'm going to get by saying this.
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Of course, going in circle of fifths, naturally. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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