Learning extended guitar arpeggios

[Munk]

My initial idea was to learn arpeggios instead of lots of scales. Now I finally begin to feel natural with basic arpeggios (m7b5, m7, maj, dom7), able to do decent improvisation by adding notes in between and able to connect arpeggios.

Of course still a lot can improve, but I wonder if this would be enough for good improvisation, if once really mastered or what the next step would be in order to play over all extended chords.

Some theory words has crossed my road, but I have focused on my work and haven’t read about the math behind many concepts. Things like upper-structures and superimposing triads is maybe in the ballpark? Would it be worth to spend 1.000 hours on something like this, when I want to improvise on any tension and extension. Or start learning where the learn where 6, 9, 11 etc. are in all basic arpeggio patterns I know, so I see it instantly. Is is better/faster to merge different arpeggios, work on scales or stick to the basic arpeggios and develop the ear?

[pamosmusic]

Superimposing arpeggios is very very common and worth the time. It's when you play an arpeggio based off a different scale degree than the root. For example playing a major 7 arpeggio build off the third of a minor chord gives you a minor nine chord. Very useful stuff if you work through those.

Id also say transcribing some ideas you like to see what guys might be doing to turn those arpeggios into music.

[Munk]

Thanks Peter. I forgot about playing major arp over minor starting from the minor third. I was introduced to exactly this step by a teacher, though not used so much, because I was disapointed only gaining the 9 th. But I will look for more info about the subject now. Many different superimposings can maybe cover a lot of extensions. I don’t know, but maybe also very mindconsuming, when there is no time to think like if improvising over chords as in rhythm changes.

I know different ways to use pentatonic starting at different steps for m7 and major7 chords. Some very cool sounds there, but I think maybe not the best method, when the goal is to play notes in specific changing chords, like if one instantly want to nail 11b5, aug7#9 etc and with less preparation.

I mostly practice about 4 hours, but have been lazy in transcribing. But worked a bit with some Charlie Parker tunes and also a little with some of his solos. After I learned the arpeggios it’s so nice, that it possible instantly to see when the tone fits in the arpeggio pattern.

[docbop]

Most important is voice leading your arpeggios. Without good voicing leading it's like there's a neon sign above your head when you play saying ARPEGGIO.

I practice arp's in my warm up and spend part of the time arp's up to the 7th, but then as much or more time on arp's up to the 13th. Then doing this over chord progressions to focus on voice leading the arps, extending them over a range of the neck, and adding approach notes to arp is good warmup too.

[princeplanet]

There are 2 x 13th arp patterns diatonic to any given key in any given position. Every other scale note starting from the first note in a given position, and the same thing from the second. The diatonic 13th arps are the same pool of notes for every extended chord in the key.

Now it depends, of course, on how you utilise them and resolve them, but any run of notes in these arps will be either chord tones, extension tones or a combination of the 2. It's a very easy thing to try and sounds "modern". About the only thing that might sound a little off (depending on context) is the unaltered 11th against major in a descending arp.

So before you spend 1000 hours learning a gazillion new arps, spend just a few hours on the above idea, at least to road test the sound of extended arps to see if you wanna make it part of your own thing.

Altered extended arps are another story of course, but with some clever re jigging, it's often a just matter of substituting a shape you know into a different position/context. It's best if you figure out the connections for yourself, that way they become "yours".

Good luck.

[Munk]

Not sure what voice leading means. I have one warm up exercise playing 251 arpeggios all the way up and down. Connecting to the nearest note in the direction, when the chord changes. After ending on the 1 chord, I raise the tone a half step and continue the next 251, and do all 251 arpeggios in all keys with the hand in same position. I think I will try if I can add 9 and 13 for a start.

[pamosmusic]

That would be voice leading. He means instead of playing ...

D F A C D F A C - G B D F G B D F - C E G B C E G B

you'd play

D F A C D F A C -> D F G B D F G B -> C E G B C E G B

I like to do it like I did above where I don't change direction until I run out of space but real proper voice-leading would be to do the genuine closest note like the C from the Dmin7 would go down to a B in the G7 chord. The idea is making them smooth.

[Reg]

Look you need to get it all down, and if your organized.... it shouldn't take 1000's of hours
What's your organization, your fretboard organization when practicing scales and arpeggios.

Hopefully your not just learning as grouping on the neck and then trying to connect them when you perform.

When you play a Cma7 arpeggio, the entire neck should become a Cmaj7 grid and you should also be able to see and hear all the notes harmonically implied.... If you choose Ionian. You should be able to play any scale or arpeggio starting on any scale or chord tone... anywhere on the neck. So ....do you have an organized approach to being able to do this.

Eventually your going to get to the point where you can spell or imply any chords with scales or arpeggios and as doc said use voice leading, approach and passing notes to create harmonic movement.

That is not the goal... that is one of the somewhat basic technical requirement.

The goal isn't to basically play what the changes already say. Why bother to even play... you want to create melodic ideas and use your developed technical scale and arpeggio skills to help connect and embellish your melodic ideas. You can use your arpeggios and scales to create new relationships... and develop them.

[Munk]

Thanks for the explanation about voice leading. I think this is what I have already practiced now for a year. What I want to improve is to play greater steps in arp instead of almost always to nearest chord tone. Therefore I have included another warm up exercise playing every second arpeggio tone, which I find is also good hand gymnastic. Instead of 1,3,5,7 I play 1, 5, 3, 7 etc up and down. Besides working a little on scales in all positions as the arpeggios, I practice a bit 4 th, 5 th and 6 th intervals without moving hand. The 7.th is a little annoying.


Reg. Well, I think I am organized. Maybe too much sometimes. But I started playing music when I was 50 years, and have a rather bad visual memory, so some things takes time and I want to be good in a few things instead of okay in many parts.

I have not worked that much on scales, but after a few seconds (which is too long time, of course), I can play Ionian in any key anywhere on the neck, starting on any note. I could relatively fast become well in this in Ionian, Mixolydian, locrian, dorian and Aeolian everywhere and instantly see how they fit over the arp patterns. But I’m not sure if this is worth the effort compared to develop arpeggios (besides ear, sense for melodies, rhythm etc) or good for my goal as it does not cover the extensions.

Okay, I’m almost novice compared to many here. But I mean there are 4 tones in the arp and 7 in the scale. One of the three missing is avoid note, though course possible to play. The two other scale tones are 2 and 6. And if it’s possible to learn exactly where they are positioned in all the arp patterns, it could be half the way to instantly and freely play any extension I want fast and without preparation. I don’t know. Maybe all in all just 1.000 hours for old man`?

[wolflen]

like what Reg said..when your playing a CM7 arp the whole fretboard becomes a CM7 arp..and likewise..whatever jumping off point you are using..a scale run/arp/melodic run .. learning how to play something before and after it and make it whole instead of part of you statement - that becomes the task..blending scale runs in thirds that lead into a diminished run that leads into a melodic passage and some "out" intervals that bring you back to the "head" of a tune..and feeling confident in doing so..

Im using a old folk tune to use as a vehicle to explore some of the above..simple melody but im re-instating it in as many ways as possible in some of the melodic devices I mentioned..

try using a simple melodic fragment..the first four of five notes of a melody that is recognizable ( the opening line from Norwegian Wood for example) and play with that in thirds etc..

[docbop]

Not sure what voice leading means. I have one warm up exercise playing 251 arpeggios all the way up and down. Connecting to the nearest note in the direction, when the chord changes. After ending on the 1 chord, I raise the tone a half step and continue the next 251, and do all 251 arpeggios in all keys with the hand in same position. I think I will try if I can add 9 and 13 for a start.

That's what I was getting connecting to the nearest chord tone in the direction your are going. Now that gets difficult as you move into arp's up to the 13's. Also instead of changing key by half-step make it more like musical situation and change by Circle of Fifths. You hear other doing descending or ascending in whole steps, or minor thirds. Key is adding more challenge to those leading tones between the key changes.

You can similar exercise running scales for each chord and they start changing the chord type especially on the V chord to really challenge the brain think nearest chord tone when altered notes are involved. It's a bear, but you really become a master of the fingerboard and navigating thru chords.

[Munk]

In some old threads people seemed to be divided in camps about arpeggios and scales with about half saying arpeggios were adequate.

I can play arpeggios all over the neck without so many difficults. It can be more of a challenge to remember all the chordnames in the exact moment, but it has been a big step forward to be able to throw in whatever note between some arpeggios, have room to experiment with ideas, and still the patterns for harmony and safe heaven. I guess opposite if I had started with scales and then less awareness on the chord tones.

Okay, knowing exended arpeggios may not matter in fast improvisation, but in slower tempo I think it could be a big plus to predict, land and rest on upcomming extended chordtones. So I wondered if people practised extended arpeggios or played these kinds by ear, intuition and experience.

Well, thanks a lot for all the ideas here! I will reread carefully, and try to understand the perspectives, when I have had some sleep.

By the way. Off topic. I have often experienced, that if I get annoyed or frustrated about not improving, the next day I wake up and have made progress when sleeping. Maybe I should become frustrated.

[docbop]

In some old threads people seemed to be divided in camps about arpeggios and scales with about half saying arpeggios were adequate.

No one thing is adequate over time you need to spend some time with all approaches and resources. That's why Jazz can be a lifelong pursuit. There's always an new way to navigate a tune.

[pamosmusic]

No one thing is adequate over time you need to spend some time with all approaches and resources. That's why Jazz can be a lifelong pursuit. There's always an new way to navigate a tune.

Agreed. You may be misinterpreting what you heard. I've heard Sheryl Bailey say on numerous occasions that she's "not a scale player" ... does that mean she doesn't play scales? Nope. She knows the shit out of every bit of technique under the sun. It just means that her focus is on the chords when she's playing. Be careful not to put all your eggs in one piece of advice's basket.

[docbop]

Agreed. You may be misinterpreting what you heard. I've heard Sheryl Bailey say on numerous occasions that she's "not a scale player" ... does that mean she doesn't play scales? Nope. She knows the shit out of every bit of technique under the sun. It just means that her focus is on the chords when she's playing. Be careful not to put all your eggs in one piece of advice's basket.

Some don't like when I say it, but I think the goal is only using one scale Chromatic. That you understand that sound of every note against each chord type. I know some teacher will tell students to pick a chord tone like b9 and practice playing a tune or set of changes and using a b9 on every chord. That process trains the ear to the sound against multiple chord types, it teaches in beginning how to recover from a "wrong" note, how to use a new sound which will teach about strong and weak beats. If you aren't making mistakes your aren't learning.

[Reg]

It all good... but there is really no difference between scales and arpeggios... their just different organization of use of notes.

When you play Ionian in any position anywhere on the neck...(2 octaves), basically 7 positions cover starting on any scale degree. Or you play a Cmaj7 arpeggio anywhere on the fretboard, again the same 7 positions but you'll only need 4 of those positions because your only using 4 of the notes from Cma7 Ionian.

The same works with any chord. Chords are constructed from scales.

That Cmaj7 could be from,
C Ionian,
C Lydian 4th degree from G Ionian
C Lydian #2 from 6th degree of E Har. Min.
C Ionian b6 from C Har. Maj
C maj7 from C augmented
C bebop maj
the I or bII chord from Double Harmonic

it's just a numbers game... but what is imporant is what your using as the reference for the Cmaj7 arpeggio your playing.

So generally you only need chords constructed from the three minors... Natural minor, Melodic and Harmonic Minor, there are 7 chords constructed from each scale degree. There are Diminished and a few other symmetrical type of scales... and you'll find some chords with Blue Notes added.

All the connection notes come from chords, usually Dominant chords, their subs and a few other approach chords.
There are also typical voice leading movement of certain notes which have common practice of implying common chord movements, example being 7th of II-7 chord going to the 3rd of the V7 chord etc... Voice leading is just common practice of least amount movement just as voicings are just choices... their not harmonic theory. Many of standard jazz voice leading practices would be consider wrong within classical circles. They'll get over or they won't... it's their problem... not ours.

Your ears will work for most things... but you do need to at least teach your ears the basic Jazz tonal references. Berklee added Dorian to the basic three minors as references. ( it's obviously the same collection of notes as Natural Min.). But when used as the starting tonal reference develops different relationships and helps with use of Blue Notes.

Like I said... you need to get your fretboard and fingerings together... which as you said your organized, doesn't take that long. And if you take the time and write out all the examples. You can physically see the differences and similarities and how relationships can be created and developed.

If sound like maybe in the direction your looking... we can continue the discussion, if not, best of luck.

[Munk]

Thanks a lot. It’s something to consume here. Until now I have not focused at music theory, but I will try to achieve some now.

I understand there are different scales, chords builded by stacking thirds. That seven scales are derived from major scale, besides others with different whole/half steps like harmonic minor. And guessing there are probably many others, like for example the bebop scale, altered, half-whole diminished, and imagine it's possible to build many different chords extensions out of them. Btw, I think even one scale exists, which is different ascending/decending. It seems there are also thousands of rules to follow besides probably as many ways to break them.

But from years as computer developer I like, when it’s there is a system involved. It has also been my experience, that most effective is to keep things simple as possible, not to end up in a big mess of expensive spaghetti like with many IT systems out there, and not to have too many rules and exceptions if not very important. So from the start it has been my idea, that in music this is even more important, when there is not even a second to think while playing.

I’m not sure if I can internalize so many scales and rules in a relatively short time, and get them under my fingers so I can play natural, fast and freely. In one year I have almost achieved this with the arpeggios and drop2 with extension, but I have also spend 1-2 hours everyday just on this, and all these scales is probably a many times bigger task. Anyway, I believe there can also be much improvement by understanding theory without being fluent, so I would like to understand the basic. Maybe you can suggest a theory book for starters, which covers harmony and scales?

[christianm77]

It's tangentially connected but I found the Hal Galper book Forward Motion really good - not really to do with extensions per se. A concept of lines based around rhythm.

In terms of extensions, I like to practice seventh chords built on the third - 3 to 9 arpeggios I have heard them called. For example, for this progression:

Dm G7 Cmaj7

You can play
Fmaj7 Bo7 Em7

(Fairly boring example, you can go a long way with this.)

Most important:

Find a rhythm and hang some notes on it. They can be boring notes, but if the rhythm is great it will be better music than you will manage with a boring rhythm and some fancy notes. Of course you can play great rhythms *and* interesting notes, which is what we'd all like to do better :-)

But the notes themselves mean little. To play music, you have to play phrases. Luckily there are plenty of these to listen and study on records. Let your favourite players teach you.

The number of times I've heard some amazing phrase that's turned out be little more than diatonic melody, or overlooked phrases that actually turned out to be something really strange. Certainly sharpens up my ear.

[dingusmingus]

To your original question, Munk, I have lately been working with these "super" or "grand(e)" arpeggios, just as you describe. I basically play the 1-3-5-7 arp, then add a triad from the ninth. E.g., add D major triad on top of C major 7 to get the 9, #11, and 13. Add D minor triad to C minor 7 and C7 to get the 9, 11, and 13. I've been experimenting with that, and hope to start working it into my playing.

[Munk]

ChristianM

In this way by substituting chords and play other arpeggios to achieve the 9 th (Dm7/Fmaj7), I also play dim arpeggio in minor 2-5-1.

In Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm7 – I play G7b9 by G#dim arp (and of course add some notes in between I invent). If I should use scale I think I could use a C minor scale (aolian?) and raise one step, so it would fit a G major third instead of a the minor third. And this should be C harmonic minor scale.

I tried to spend a few days on this approach for a start to see how it would be to internalize, but my conclusion was it would take much work to be natural and then just for playing a half line or maybe one second in some bebop I strive after.

I agree with your points on rhythm. Good music can be made with few notes with good rhythm sense. In the beginning I imagined my rhythms was fine when I played, but I soon changed my mind after I recorded some of it. It’s fun to play few notes and simple lines and focus on the rhythm. Polyrhytms are also very interesting.

Dismingus, thats cool. Would like to hear how it turns out for you to get it into your playing

[christianm77]

ChristianM

In this way by substituting chords and play other arpeggios to achieve the 9 th (Dm7/Fmaj7), I also play dim arpeggio in minor 2-5-1.

In Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm7 – I play G7b9 by G#dim arp (and of course add some notes in between I invent). If I should use scale I think I could use a C minor scale (aolian?) and raise one step, so it would fit a G major third instead of a the minor third. And this should be C harmonic minor scale.

Yes you are right. That's a fairly vanilla choice (nothing wrong with harmonic minor). I find minor seventh harmony a bit nondescript in this context (Cm7.) Melodic minor harmony is very nice for minor ii-V-I's and can be introduced quite easily using the 3-5 thing. For example:

Fmmaj7 - Bm7b5 (or Bo7) - Ebmaj7#5

I really like the last sound for a C minor chord.

You can also put chords on the fifth of the chord - this is kind of cool for the Dm7b5. You could use a b5 for the G7 (altered), of course, and resolve to a simple Cmmaj7.

Abmaj7 - Db7(b5) - Cmmaj7

Also, as you say using a chord a half step above the dominant. This can be diminished, minor major seventh or minor sixth. The first gives you the C harmonic minor sound, the last two give you the altered scale sound. I like the following:

Abmaj7 - Abmmaj7 - Cmmaj7

Sometimes these can be hard to hear without a bassline.

I tried to spend a few days on this approach for a start to see how it would be to internalize, but my conclusion was it would take much work to be natural and then just for playing a half line or maybe one second in some bebop I strive after.

I agree with your points on rhythm. Good music can be made with few notes with good rhythm sense. In the beginning I imagined my rhythms was fine when I played, but I soon changed my mind after I recorded some of it. It’s fun to play few notes and simple lines and focus on the rhythm. Polyrhytms are also very interesting.

Polyrhythms are the basis of jazz phrasing. The quarter note and half note triplets are particularly good to practice if you are interested in swing feels. I like to count them against records and the metronome. It's easy to turn that second note late, so watch out for that :-)

[pamosmusic]

Fmmaj7 - Bm7b5 (or Bo7) - Ebmaj7#5

Fmmaj7 - Fm7b5 - Ebmaj7#5

thats the stuff ... Though I guess for our purposes it would be a Bmaj7b5 instead of Fmin7b5 eh?

[Reg]

Munk... it's not complicated, it rather very simple.

Chords and arpeggios have a reference, where the notes come from. In jazz they generally come from three (3) scales.

Those scales... 1 Major (natural Min) 2 Melodic Minor, 3 Harmonic Min.

Each scale creates 7 chords built from each scale degree, Jazz uses 7th chords as the basic reference,

MAJ or Nat min.

Ima7...Cma7 extensions 9, 11, 13
II-7.....D-7 ... ext...........9, 11, 13
III-7.....E-7 ... ext...........b9, 11, 13
IVma7..Fma7...ext...........9, #11, 13
V7.......G7......ext...........9, 11, 13
VI-7.....A-7.....ext...........9, 11, b13
VII-7b5..B-7b5 ext.........b9, 11, b13

relating to Minor or the VI-7 chord as I-...............Minor #1

I-7........A-7.....ext...........9, 11, b13 (same as VI-7 chord above)
II-7b5...B-7b5 ext.........b9, 11, b13 (same as VII-7b5 chord above)
bIIIma7..Cma7 ext......... 9, 11, 13 (same as Imaj7 chord above)
IV-7.......D-7 ... ext...........9, 11, 13 (same as II-7 chord above)
V-7........E-7 ... ext...........b9, 11, 13 (same as III-7 chord above)
bVIma7..Fma7...ext...........9, #11, 13 (same as IVma7 chord above)
bVII7.....G7......ext...........9, 11, 13 (same as V7 chord above)

Melodic Min .................................................. ............Minor #2

I-ma7.........A-ma7.....ext...........9, 11, 13 *Jazz Min
II-7............B-7 ........ ext.........b9, 11, 13 *Dorian b9
bIIIma7#5..Cma7...... ext.......... 9, #11, 13 *Lydian Augmented
IV7............D7 ......... ext...........9, #11, 13 * Lydian b7 or Lydian Dominant
V7.............E7 ......... ext...........9, 11, b13 *Mixolydian b13
VI-7b5.......F#-7b5....ext...........9, 11, b13 *semilocrian
VII-7b5......G#-7b5....ext...........b9, b11, b13 * we call this a V7 altered chord, 1, 3, b5, b7, b9 #9 b13 (V7alt)

Harmonic Minor............................................. .................Minor #3

I-ma7.........A-ma7.....ext...........9, 11, b13 * Harmonic Min.
II-7b5.........B-7b5 ....ext.........b9, 11, 13 * Locrian #6
bIIIma7#5..Cma7#5... ext.......... 9, 11, 13 * ionian augmented
IV-7...........D-7 ........ ext...........9, #11, 13 * Romanian?
V7.............E7 ......... ext...........b9, 11, b13 * Phrygian Dominant
bVIms7......Fmaj7......ext...........#9, #11, 13 * Lydian #2
VIIdim7......G#dim7....ext...........b9, b11, b13 * Ultralocrian

There... 21 chords with extensions. These are not embellishment. they're basic references, for performing Jazz tunes.

Diminished and Whole Tone ... a few more

[Munk]

Thanks for this list Reg. I can see how the chord extensions can be derived from scales and imagine it can be used in different ways when mastering scales. But now I have only the major scale relatively okay in the fingers and the arpeggios. And if I want to build on this and make a little but fast step forward and add the 9 th, it’s only one tone in the arpeggios, but with scales I will have to have a mapping system and play Cmajor scale when G9. This is what I believe take longer time to achieve to integrate, but I don’t doubt it can also open doors. And with the approach by focusing at arpeggios instead of scales – or instead of both scales AND arpeggios – I find it simple and effective because I always know where the chord tones are.

[Reg]

Yes it can be somewhat confusing or complicated at first... but doesn't take long, and in the end you will have complete system that won't hit walls and even more important you'll play jazz tunes in a jazz style.