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So...
As I understood, I can play different scales over a chord in a song, can't I? I mean, if there's a Dm7 you can use a D eolian scale or D dorian or D phrygian (and others if the chord is diatonic to the scale). Obviously there's ones that sound better than others depending on the next chord.
If the stuff above is right i got two questions:
1.- Why everyone on the internet says that Kind of Blue is in D & E Dorian?
2.- How can I know if one sounds better than another just looking the sheet?
If the stuff above is wrong, correct me please, I really want to learn Jazz
Thanks in advance.
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01-13-2015 06:36 PM
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Well, yeah, a minor chord can be handled with different scales...but this is the problem with scale thinking really..mlook at the notes, in the scale, in the chord.
So What is a "Dorian" tune because the harmony of it is basically two harmonized Dorian scales...diesn't mean you can only play those notes, but that's the info the tune itself gives you.
Are you just starting out? I have strong feelings about beginners and modal tunes.
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Yeah, I'm a newbie
What do you mean by scale thinking?
What do you mean by two harmonized Dorian scales? because I just see two "-7" chords
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Yeah, but did you listen to the tune? Those chords...everything Bill plays, really. Check it out.
There's an inherent problem with thinking about scales "over" chords. Don't disconnect melody from the harmony...
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I am not the most advanced improvisor but in a nutshell what I understand about it is:
on Dm7 your chord tones : D,F,A,C are your base.
You can play pretty much any note as long as it sound nice to you and you come back to the base often enough
morale is: know where the base is
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Scale thinking is what you're doing see a chord and associate a scale with it based of some formula. Another term for it is CST = Chord Scale Theory. The problem is there is so much more to it that this chord that scale, you still have to learn which note of the scale to use when, and which notes give that scale or mode it sound. How to determine which scale is used you have to learn at least some basic theory so you know how the chord is functioning, you also want look at the melody of the tune to help determine scale to use. Plus there are other minor scale to consider to like Melodic and Harmonic minor. Each scale has a sound and so now we're headed into the topic of ear training the most important skill.
Originally Posted by vxxm
So I'd say you need to get a book or find a web site to start learning some rudimentary harmony and theory. Then at this stage probably best to get a intro the Improvisation book. Then start listen to lots and lots of Jazz then more listening. You need to get the feel into your gut. Then start hearing the sounds of the chords and the notes soloists are using. Get some early Miles Davis, Wes Montgomery, Cannonball Adderley are good places for a beginner to start.
This stuff isn't cookie cutter you have to develop your brain and your ears in order to play Jazz.
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I mean, I'm a newbie in jazz, but I understand music theory and harmony. When you talk about the melody you mean the head, right?
Do you have a good book or a web page to learn?Last edited by vxxm; 01-13-2015 at 08:31 PM.
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Yeah, sorry, I'm not explaining myself well...i guess I think of melody as a solo too...whatever's the to latch on to...So What carries some melody in the bass, even...
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Do you mean So What? Originally Posted by vxxm
So...
As I understood, I can play different scales over a chord in a song, can't I? I mean, if there's a Dm7 you can use a D eolian scale or D dorian or D phrygian (and others if the chord is diatonic to the scale). Obviously there's ones that sound better than others depending on the next chord.
If the stuff above is right i got two questions:
1.- Why everyone on the internet says that Kind of Blue is in D & E Dorian?
2.- How can I know if one sounds better than another just looking the sheet?
If the stuff above is wrong, correct me please, I really want to learn Jazz
Thanks in advance.
D Dorian and Eb Dorian. The melody and chords are in Dorian, right?
What any/every person not in Miles' band chooses to do in their improvised solo for this tune is strictly individual, albeit somewhat predictable. The composer, Davis, certainly can't control such things.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-14-2015 at 01:07 AM.
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Let me pose this question through a different door, what notes if any are challenging
inside of a D minor environment and why?
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What is the inherent problem in thinking about scales over chords? Chords are built from scales. It's the notes that you choose to play. With CST I don't think anyone is suggesting that one finds a scale that fits the chord, then play the scale linearly. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by gnatola
The problem, as I see it, isn't the scales, it's the word "over."
For a beginner, it implies a "prescriptive" approach. You see this chord symbol, this scale fits over it. Like layers. Songs become puzzles or codes to crack.
What this can lead to is the meandering scaley solos that some of the fogey boppers and swingers like to use an example when they say "SEE! CST IS EVIL!" When in fact it has nothing to do with the theory...
This is why I don't like modal tunes for beginners, because they are more open--they're really just harmonic environments...sure, So What is Dorian, but even deeper, it's two "minor" environments...seems simple on paper because it's just two things, back and forth, but it's not easy to say something interesting in that context!
A tune with functional harmony is much easier to get your "jazz legs" on, because it forces you to see the relationships between what you play and the underlying harmony...without actually examining the chords, guide tones, etc--you won't get the movement in your solo that IS jazz...where you can hear the changes--and yeah, I do think you gotta play music where you can hear the changes clearly in your solo before you can start to step away from that...
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I see the Modal problem and CST is Modal Jazz was about soloist bringing focus back to the melody of the lines versus making changes. Then young guys learn CST and figure alright the magic bullet and try to apply running scales so its a mess. But then young CST players start playing changes and finds some relief in having changes, but still sound like just running scales, not they have to focus on finding the notes within the scale that bring out the changes. So now off to arpeggio world. And so it goes till time to hit guide tone and eventually it all comes back to creating melodies over changes. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So as were discussed before CST, Modal, arpeggios, guide tones, voice leading arpeggios and scales, chord/scale sub's and so on are all topics that every player has to spend time with along the paths. No magic bullet, no formulas, just a lots of things to work on in the woodshed to build personal vocabulary and how to apply it over any tune.
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When I began CST was a problem for me because when I tired to think in ' a mode over chord' I could think only of lines/motives where the intervals are carachteristic - that is how understood what mode was, so playing 'mode over the chord' seemed a bit mechanical for me as an approach, I could not find creative impulse in it... and when I thought the key/chord shape or any other method where harmonic sound is basic I had in mind no the lines of intervals, but scope of notes which I could use in any order just following certain milestones to keep the track.
(Later I got through it when I began to hear the complex chord as self-sufficient not like an extention of basic functional chords - that led me to understanding jazz modality)
By the way... may be it is wrong... but in any case I feel it like playing over... like layers...
To begin playing from harmony can also make problems sometimes... newbie can get into playing the harmony itself which may sound to straight...
Maybe it will sound a bit not really correct from school method, but I think whatever musical background student has, together with concepts (or even first of all) one should go through the licks and parts of solos...
I compare love for listning jazz, with love for listneing stories (not reading but listnening), so to play is kind of stroy-telling (not story-writing: good stroy-tellers can be lousy writers and vice versa)..
Licks give all in one: harmony feel, ntricate intonative motivic lines, rythm - how they work together in a natural speachLast edited by Jonah; 01-14-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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Chords, melody, and bass. When you play a chord in an arrangement that is a Cmaj7, you have a four-note basic chord in the key of C. The notes are the intervals from the tonic: 1-maj3 - 5 - maj7. That is four out of the possible twelve tones. Add in the 2 - 4 - 6 and you have seven out of twelve tones that cannot sound 'discordant' in the key of C. But in practice you have to learn to shape a melodic phrase over the harmony and include chromatic notes as well.
There is a marked difference between playing random notes that are consonant with a chord and its qualities and actually improvising or playing a standard melody in a rhythmically appropriate manner with expression. Nonetheless, there are always scalar elements to a melody and to the construction of the harmony.
While a beginner may need to think in a CST approach to 'find' the right notes in the scale for a particular chord, I doubt many seasoned musicians playing standards are thinking in that manner when they improvise or comp. They simply "hear the changes" intuitively.
Jay
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Can anyone suggest a good overview of principles for melodic improvisation? That might help the OP (and me as well!).
I did find this nice overview, which seems to be a college essay.
http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/i...roviseJazz.pdf
Any other suggestions?
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Originally Posted by KIRKP
Learning melodies of tunes is what some of the greats have mentioned. Great melodies start becoming part of your vocabulary to reference and build on. Even Coltrane after his sheets of sound and other freer player went back for three albums Ballads becoming one of his greatest and he basically just plays the melodies to the tunes with so much feeling you don't need more. I would say for beginning improvisors using melodies as your starting point and embellishing would teach a lot, then use melody fragments as motifs to expand on.
We talk about horn players all the time being the best soloists, well think about how they grow up, they are playing melodies, and get in bands and play melodies and counter melodies. They get into Jazz they have a very melodic base build on. Just a thought.
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If one goes for this introduction to CC style carefully, he will get everything that is needed for beginner I think: harmonic chganges, motivic formulas, chord shapes - in simple but fascinating outlay
http://www.africanafrican.com/Charli...z%20Guitar.pdfLast edited by Jonah; 01-14-2015 at 01:41 PM.
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Quoting myself, a bit silly but.......since there are no takers in 12 hours (a bit impatient ain't I?) Originally Posted by bako
I would say that F# is the only challenging note within a D minor environment.
F# is a primary indicator of D major which can be problematic playing D minor.
Even so, due to the strong directional pull to G, even F# can appear in a D minor environment.
There is a continuum of consonant to dissonant colors:
Root ------ D
m3 -------- F
5th -------- A
7th -------- C or C#
2nd/9th --- E
11th ------- G
13th ------- B
greater dissonance
b2/b9 --- Eb
b5/#11 - Ab
#5/b13 - A#/Bb
I like to think in terms of meaningful note collections because they are a smaller more manageable snapshot of the total chromatic package. Doing so doesn't remove the ability to supplement this collection with additional notes.
An arpeggio is a good 1st reference to a harmony but is most often a subset of a scale.
Once an arpeggio is extended 1 3 5 7 9 11 13, there is virtually no difference between a chord and scale.
Modes are just organized note collection catalogues. There are many reasons that we as players get stuck and make unmusical choices. Context and personal musical vision inform the musical choices to be made.
There is much recorded history addressing minor chords. Do the listening, it's important.
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totally agree Mr B ..... don't play over the changes , play the changes Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I would add as musicians get better they play thru the changes, they are creating long lines that weave thru the changes. Originally Posted by pingu
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Yeah, I think once you can play 'em, then you stretch, blur, superimpose, ignore, alter, all that fun stuff.
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As I understood, I can play different scales over a chord in a song, can't I? I mean, if there's a Dm7 you can use a D eolian scale or D dorian or D phrygian (and others if the chord is diatonic to the scale). Obviously there's ones that sound better than others depending on the next chord.
explaining theory in a forum as this is difficult at times..explaining miles davis is more difficult..explaining miles davis with John Coltrane, Bill Evens and Julian Adderly on the Kind of Blue album is almost impossible..and thousands have tried
all the above posts are offering good advice..but I feel in your case its like asking 100 "health food" advocates about diet..what works for each one of them may be valid..but now you have to ask yourself..ok..which one is right for me?
the one main factor that is not stressed enough is "time/patients" if you immerse yourself in the study of jazz..and all its many aspects..like diet..you have to digest all the information..make it part of you..feel comfortable with it in any and all keys/time signatures/rhythms..this takes time and dedication..
to explain what you can or cannot play over a chord is like a zen koan..the master may reply.."well..what do you hear?"
in my study of symmetric harmony I'm always brought back to the basic triad as something to go to or from..something that is hidden in the middle of the most complex run..and sometime preceded by a triad a minor third lower and followed by a triad a minor third higher or as in your question..a minor second higher..keys/chords/theories all get run over by the simplicity of something hiding in plain sight..
on the Kind of Blue album..listen to Evens solo on Blue in Green..or Flemenco Sketches..listen to the sax solos on All Blues..now these guys didn't rehearse these tunes for days..they did the them in a couple of takes..and AFAIK..KOB is still the best selling jazz album..what..50 years..the jazz gods are alive and well on this album..their solos make sense..they are not super fast scale runs or wild interval tricks..they hug the harmony and the melody they are the tunes they are playing .. its not a separate part of the tune..
I realize this is not an answer to your question directly..but from my view..I'm not sure this is "an answer"
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1.- Why everyone on the internet says that Kind of Blue is in D & E Dorian?
A: If you listen to the recording of the song, all the players mainly use D and Eb Dorian to improvise on. I'm sure they will throw in other notes too but mainly D and Eb Dorian.
2.- How can I know if one sounds better than another just looking the sheet?
Check out the next and previous chords. If you have D-7 E-7 Fmaj7, you know E-7 is probably going to sound good if you play Phrygain over it. Also check out the head, what scale is being used. You'll get your answer there too.
Additionally:
The general rule is there's no such thing as a wrong note.
The basic idea is that you have 12 notes and you can play then on top of any kind of chord in the world.
The chord tones themselves will sound very consonant. Generally, notes a half-step above the chord tones will sound dissonant. All other notes will be in between.Use the above combination of notes to your advantage and manipulate dissonance and consonance to create music according to your taste. Smart melodic movement allows you to fit in any note anywhere successfully.
To obtain the aforementioned taste and smart melodic movement, you need to hear and understand the notes over the chords. If you are a jazz neophyte like I am, the only way to learn is by listening and transcribing. This way you will hear good players playing all kinds of notes on all kinds of chords and making music. Then slowly you will absorb it. After a while you will know what to play over what chord to achieve a specific kind of sound that you desire.
One way of putting it could be :
A master could play Eb Dorian over D-7 better than a beginner could play D Dorian over D-7.
The difference lies in the melodic sense within the player and his/her understanding of the sound of those notes over the chord.
But for beginners like me, its recommended to learn the "appropriate" chord-scale for each chord, just to be able to play "something" until our ears develop a certain level of melodic sophistication. The chord-scales should be thought of as a place-holder. Main focus should be on listening and transcribing.Last edited by pushkar000; 01-14-2015 at 07:04 PM.
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I have nothing to add much aside from - yes! listen to the guys on this forum. Really excellent advice.
I think Charlie Christian is a great jumping off point BTW as he is such a guitaristic player, and he makes a few key licks go a long long way.
Incidentally - I was transcribing the tune Six Appeal by CC - and what should I find - but the Dorian mode used in the last chorus riff, ahaha... Miles Davis wasn't the first by a long way....
CST wouldn't exist if it didn't reflect something to do with the notes you find in jazz lines and chords. BUT - and this is a big BUT - it doesn't actually mean that is the process for playing jazz. To do that, you are going to have to listen to a lot of music, and learn to play phrases over tunes by ear. Chord tones are a great help in that, because your ear will hear them easily.
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