Is there a name for this type of chord?

[JensL]

I use them all the time and wanted to make a lesson demonstrating how I do that when I realized that I don't have a name for them



They very much associated with Sco in my head (ears?) but he is far from the only one to use them.

Thanks!
Jens

[bako]

Joe Damien and Mick Goodrick refer to #1 as 7(no 3rd) 1 5 7
and #2 as 7(no 5th) 1 3 7

[fumblefingers]

Rootless 6th and fifth less 7th?

[JensL]

Joe Damien and Mick Goodrick refer to #1 as 7(no 3rd) 1 5 7
and #2 as 7(no 5th) 1 3 7

Yeah I decided to go with 3 note 7th chord voicings to keep it in one category. That means that there would be 2 more possible voicings than the two I listed, but that's fine too.

Jens

[JensL]

Rootless 6th and fifth less 7th?

That of course also depends on what you percieve as the root

Jens

[JazzinNY]

I dunno but my fingers hurt after trying.

[bako]

Jon Damian created a wonderful document that he called "The Palette Chart" in his Chord Factory book.
It documents and catalogues all class of 3 note structures within a 7 note scale context.

This is the nomenclature that he assigned to the various chord types.

Traditional Triad Family
Quartal Family
7th (no 5th) Family
7th (no 3rd) Family
Cluster Family
Octave Family

[cosmic gumbo]

My hand doctor calls them "money" chords. He said if more people used them, it would cause enough hand damage for him to buy a new house.

[JensL]

My hand doctor calls them "money" chords. He said if more people used them, it would cause enough hand damage for him to buy a new house.

On facebook somebody called them expensive, he probably has the same doctor!

Jens

[JensL]

Jon Damian created a wonderful document that he called "The Palette Chart" in his Chord Factory book.
It documents and catalogues all class of 3 note structures within a 7 note scale context.

This is the nomenclature that he assigned to the various chord types.

Traditional Triad Family
Quartal Family
7th (no 5th) Family
7th (no 3rd) Family
Cluster Family
Octave Family

Thanks! I know very little of his music and his books, what I've seen was pretty impressive though!

Jens

[edh]

My hand doctor calls them "money" chords. He said if more people used them, it would cause enough hand damage for him to buy a new house.

[spanshman101]

top line has sus4 chords

2nd line is
1rst chord could be a 7(am) or a 6(C) chord then the next chord is the same then 3rd chord i would think of am9 or sus2 or Cmaj7 and so on. These voices can be used greatly if you study voice leading and notate them differently. It is also suggested to use them for lines if arpreggiated and other notes were thrown in. This is my method to sooing that right there that you are looking at.

Consider the 4th chord on line 2. you could throw the C on top and your looking at a Dminor 7 voicing. Make a line out of it by adding the "A" note!

[spanshman101]

top line 1st chord can me Cmaj7
2nd chord can be D7(major or minor) and so on

[bako]

There are of course several ways to describe chords based on the perceived root and context of usage.
I find having some kind of systematic starter name is helpful towards memorization.

1st line/1st chord (original presentation) G B C

C G B --- G B C --- B C G || C B G --- B G C --- G C B

2nd line/1st chord (original presentation) G A C

A C G --- C G A --- G A C || A G C --- G C A --- C A G

[JensL]

So this is the lesson (first part anyway..) I ended up making:

In this lesson I want to introduce a type of chords that I use a lot which are a versatile and practical way to play chords with 2nd intervals in them which is often difficult on guitar, but has a very nice and interesting sound.

The examples are available here with some explanations and also a pdf download:
Jazz Chord Essentials - 3 note 7th chords part 1 - Jens Larsen


Hope you like it!

Jens

[cosmic gumbo]

practical way to play chords

Jens, I've got nothing but respect for your playing, teaching and knowledge, but, I usually play on a 25 1/2 scale guitar and those fingerings are not what I would advise to other players as "essential" or "practical", which might lead a beginner to think they are common fingerings for the average guitarist.

I have average size hands, and by experience, those fingerings would cause me some type of repetitive stress damage if I were to try and adopt them. Some folks can make some gains with stretching exercises to attain more flexibility in their hands, but sometimes it just causes damage by trying to ask the hand to perform some mechanics it wasn't engineered to do. All hands are not created equal.

[fumblefingers]

That of course also depends on what you percieve as the root

Jens

well i am looking at the bottom note as the third by calling them rootless sixth chords.


it guess troubles me a little bit to have so many third-less chords.

[mr. beaumont]

Jens, I've got nothing but respect for your playing, teaching and knowledge, but, I usually play on a 25 1/2 scale guitar and those fingerings are not what I would advise to other players as "essential" or "practical", which might lead a beginner to think they are common fingerings for the average guitarist.

I have average size hands, and by experience, those fingerings would cause me some type of repetitive stress damage if I were to try and adopt them. Some folks can make some gains with stretching exercises to attain more flexibility in their hands, but sometimes it just causes damage by trying to ask the hand to perform some mechanics it wasn't engineered to do. All hands are not created equal.

Y'know...that really only makes a difference at the first fret.

[jordanklemons]

I use them all the time and wanted to make a lesson demonstrating how I do that when I realized that I don't have a name for them

As far as I know, when you have voicings made up of ONLY 2nds and 3rds, they are technically cluster chords...so like you said...what you call them would really depend pretty much entirely on what root note you're putting underneath.

I have 'used' (lightly in passing) most of the chords...but generally just as some little sort of non-sensical passing movement. But a few of these are go-to voicings for me for specific tonalities.

I use #1 from the top line as an A-9 all the time. No root and no 5th. Sounds great! Sometimes I add the open 5th string to give it a root, but usually no. And I sometimes use it for CMaj7 too...but not nearly as often. By that logic, obviously that means I also use #4 from the top line as a D-9. Same deal. I move the shape around depending on the chord.

I also use #3 on the bottom line as an A-9...this time with no root and no 7....just the 9, 3, and 5. But the half step is pretty enough to hold up that tonality without the missing notes. And again...that one I move around a lot...so #6 on the bottom line would be D-9.

[cosmic gumbo]

Y'know...that really only makes a difference at the first fret.

Really? xx743x xx1076x

[JensL]

Jens, I've got nothing but respect for your playing, teaching and knowledge, but, I usually play on a 25 1/2 scale guitar and those fingerings are not what I would advise to other players as "essential" or "practical", which might lead a beginner to think they are common fingerings for the average guitarist.

I have average size hands, and by experience, those fingerings would cause me some type of repetitive stress damage if I were to try and adopt them. Some folks can make some gains with stretching exercises to attain more flexibility in their hands, but sometimes it just causes damage by trying to ask the hand to perform some mechanics it wasn't engineered to do. All hands are not created equal.

Thanks CG. To be honest I never thought about it like that at all, but maybe you have a point.

To me these voicings don't feel stretchy compared to some of the Holdsworth stuff. I got them into my playing at the same time as I was learning drop2 and the drop2's gave me more trouble in fact.

The reason that I call them essential is mostly because they are a type of voicing that I use really a lot and because that is what I call my lessons on voicings. Given how much they are used I would consider them common fingerings for an average (jazz) guitarist, my experience with students but that is only based on my experience.

Thanks for the feedback!

Jens

[silverfoxx]

My hand doctor calls them "money" chords. He said if more people used them, it would cause enough hand damage for him to buy a new house.

Joe Pass told me " if it hurts, don't do it" there is always an alternative.

[cosmic gumbo]

We each have to exploit the things we can do, everyone's hands have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. I could never deal with a lot of Ted Greene's chord shapes. I know I've hurt my hand a few times through the years trying to force it to do things it wasn't meant to. You have learn how to listen to your own body.

I think most serious guitarists have taken their hands to the limits to see what they can and cannot do. Guitarists aren't the only ones prone to music injuries, lots of horror stories out there. You gotta be careful if you're a pro and other people are counting on you, because it becomes a career injury.

As a reading musician, when I see guitar charts asking for voicings with lots of 2nds in them, I usually assume the arranger is ignorant about writing for guitar.

[JensL]

We each have to exploit the things we can do, everyone's hands have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. I could never deal with a lot of Ted Greene's chord shapes. I know I've hurt my hand a few times through the years trying to force it to do things it wasn't meant to. You have learn how to listen to your own body.

I think most serious guitarists have taken their hands to the limits to see what they can and cannot do. Guitarists aren't the only ones prone to music injuries, lots of horror stories out there. You gotta be careful if you're a pro and other people are counting on you, because it becomes a career injury.

As a reading musician, when I see guitar charts asking for voicings with lots of 2nds in them, I usually assume the arranger is ignorant about writing for guitar.

Ironically the first big band project I played in at the conservatory was a Maria Schneider project. Very difficult and lots of 2nds in the voicings (the guitar parts were co-written by Ben Monder). Great music though...

I think I did to some degree train my hands with Ted Green exercises. I remember them as much more difficult than thia though.

With all aspects of playing you need to listen to or be aware of your body.


Jens

[christianm77]

I use them all the time and wanted to make a lesson demonstrating how I do that when I realized that I don't have a name for them



They very much associated with Sco in my head (ears?) but he is far from the only one to use them.

Thanks!
Jens

Yes, he is called Henry the Friendly Tortoise.

That's what I call him. I think if you get into this type of intervallic harmony there will be many chords that don't have a name from the point of view of chord symbols. You might be best off understanding them as belonging to what ever scale or mode...