Why do musical intervals have two names?

[KirkP]

Here's what I've gotten out of this thread and a bit of research...

"Pitch" is the frequency of a sound. "Note" is the name we use for a pitch.

There can be several names for the same pitch. For example, the pitch we'd usually refer to as "C" can also be named B# or Dbb. There might be reasons for using these alternative names when playing in keys with a lot of flats or sharps.

Intervals are differences between two pitches (or, more accurately ratios between their frequencies).

Under canonical music theory, interval names are based on the note names as written in the score. So it's indeed possible to get unusual interval names like double-diminished 5th (as someone mentioned earlier).

To keep things simple, most jazz musicians don't name intervals according to canonical theory. Instead, they name them as if the lower note of the interval were the tonic of a major scale. They even do this if playing a minor scale.

For example, when playing in the key of Gminor, I usually call the G to Bb interval a minor or diminished 3rd, not a 3rd.

It's good to know about the canonical naming convention, but I'll continue to follow the bandstand convention.

[vhollund]

Where did you see canonical ? ...I think you simply mean a written interval

[KirkP]

Where did you see canonical ? ...I think you simply mean a written interval

I understood "canonical" to mean formal music theory,, but that might have been a poor word choice.

[vhollund]

Modern music and jazz also use about the same formal language.
But you don't have to choose one terminology
There's no real conflict between them, as long as you take note of the context.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Oh man....after reading this thread it makes me think I'm so glad that I never went to formal music school....man...

[vhollund]

But still you do have enough patience to look at that video ;-)

I never had to discuss like this in school, because when everyone has the same good teachers it's hard to get it wrong
Either you get it or you don't
No endless discussions were necessary, and only one person with the specific teachers hat, to ask.
...that was before the internet so you had to wait a while for a response by post btw.


Yep... Horse messengers.

[Reg]

It's all good... sorry I didn't watch the vid... but I never mind discussing music, even if most of the discussions are BS.
It's really not that much different from playing all over... there is lots of opinions and BS also. But generally most can't BS their way through performance part, but it can be worked out.

* No references to anyone here * disclaimer

[OldGuitarPlayer]

But still you do have enough patience to look at that video ;-)

I never had to discuss like this in school, because when everyone has the same good teachers it's hard to get it wrong
Either you get it or you don't
No endless discussions were necessary, and only one person with the specific teachers hat, to ask.
...that was before the internet so you had to wait a while for a response by post btw.


Yep... Horse messengers.

Posting the video was meant in humor. I think a healthy discussion of music theory is a good thing however I only know just enough to get me in trouble.

Carry on....

[fumblefingers]

Here's what I've gotten out of this thread and a bit of research...

"Pitch" is the frequency of a sound. "Note" is the name we use for a pitch.

There can be several names for the same pitch. For example, the pitch we'd usually refer to as "C" can also be named B# or Dbb. There might be reasons for using these alternative names when playing in keys with a lot of flats or sharps.

Intervals are differences between two pitches (or, more accurately ratios between their frequencies).

Under canonical music theory, interval names are based on the note names as written in the score. So it's indeed possible to get unusual interval names like double-diminished 5th (as someone mentioned earlier).

To keep things simple, most jazz musicians don't name intervals according to canonical theory. Instead, they name them as if the lower note of the interval were the tonic of a major scale. They even do this if playing a minor scale.

For example, when playing in the key of Gminor, I usually call the G to Bb interval a minor or diminished 3rd, not a 3rd.

It's good to know about the canonical naming convention, but I'll continue to follow the bandstand convention.

I'm having a little trouble following your example. G to Bb is a minor third and that's whether you're playing in G minor or not.

But it is not a diminished third. If you call it that you would simply be incorrect. No offense or anything (since everybody is getting offended about intervals), it's just the way it is. A diminished 3rd would be G to Bbb.

[KirkP]

... A diminished 3rd would be G to Bbb.

Thanks for the correction. You're right!

[vhollund]

Bb is the third in g minor.

[fumblefingers]

Bb is the third in g minor.

Yes indeed, the third SCALE TONE. And it is a minor third from the tonic.

perhaps you should start a thread about scale and key fundamentals.

Intervals are measured in half steps. Enharmonics notwithstanding, right vs. wrong is kind of binary here.

[bird_lives]

Perfect augmented and diminished intervals and major and minor intervals contextually fit into classical theory concepts.

With jazz theory you just say flat or raised.

The reason you have an raised four and a flat five is due to the relationship of chords or scales. For example take C Lydian.

C D E F# G A B C

F# is a raised four (augmented fourth).

Take a c7b5

CEGbBb

There is a flat five.

So in jazz theory it's a chicken or egg thing its where it fits that you know what to call it.

Jazz theory doesn't get to the complexity of needing to call it anything other than raised or flat. Calling it this allows allows you to think deftly.

[vhollund]

I think we still call it a "dimished 7 chord" in jazz too though.

[vhollund]

Yes indeed, the third SCALE TONE. And it is a minor third from the tonic.

perhaps you should start a thread about scale and key fundamentals.

Intervals are measured in half steps. Enharmonics notwithstanding, right vs. wrong is kind of binary here.

When I say it, I think of the intervallic relation to the root.
Maybe people who are more "scale oriented" than me think of what you say.
It has never really presented it self to me before though, and 25 years in music is some.
A scale is a bunch of intervals relating to a root and/or a key in my head btw.
I was just trained that way

[Reg]

Where does that chord... C E Gb Bb come from... seems more whole tone than diminished, isn't in jazz circles, Cdim7 have an Eb... C Eb Gb Bbb.

Or is that C7b5 just a standard C7#11 from Melodic Min.

[vhollund]

I think it's the same most of the time even though 7b5 in theory would imply the perfect 4th and no P5...
It depends on the context ofcourse, but...yeah : same.

I mention diminished 7, for another reason Reg