-
Labeling or notating written music doesn't apply, insofar as what I'm talking about. Talking about and understanding, yes.
Originally Posted by Reg
in other words written music doesn't use terms like perfect 4th or minor second. In other words I am not talking about key signatures or notation or even chords symbols. The op is about understanding the terminology of different intervals.
What are some examples of how intervals come up in your working life, and what descriptive language do you use? Care to share?Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-07-2015 at 02:56 PM.
-
01-07-2015 01:54 PM
-
Yea I know Dan and Barrie. I've had the chance to work a few of the UNT jazz festivals... Neither one of them played that much... but wonderful teachers.
Intervals... not really much, voicings that use specific intervals. Transposition, I generally transpose tunes for Vocalist up or down different intervals. Sometimes use of constant structure intervals... using multi tonic applications when performing tunes. Different intervals can have different characteristics, especially when you get into modal concepts for playing.
I can say that strict usage of Maj, Min, Per, Aug and dim... aren't always used. What do you call a Blue Note besides a mistake...
When you transpose a tune to relative Min.... what interval would that be.... be careful this is a trick question, in more ways than one. What about related Minor, again what interval would that be.
The language generally reflects the gig, different with show, know very little, just read the part and follow the conductor, as compared to in studio with jazz musicians. Or touring with latin band. Didn't say correct, just different, I respect them all, and understand their music, terminology and applications....
-
I don't think that one needs to talk incessantly about intervals when playing and writing music, although some of course. the more you have to talk about the details the more likely the topic of intervals will come up. on the other hand once a person understands keys, scales,modes, harmony etc. they have more robust concepts to refer to.
maybe a better question from me to you and vhollund would be "when you write your music theory 1 book, how will you approach the typical fundamental topics (in particular intervals), how will it be different from the theory 1 books written by practically everybody else, and why is it important in your view to be different?
but whatever.
so, on the transposition ten dollar question - what's the answer(s)?
also i don't remember "related" minor, just relative and parallel minor. it's been awhile...
i think i understand your last statement. i interpret it to mean that as a flexible, adaptable, journeyman pro you encounter all types of protocols and "standards" in the practice of professional music, and when you do, you collaborate to work productively to produce successful outcomes. great.
but the challenge in my mind is that a grizzled veteran often finds it difficult to relate to being a greenhorn who is taking baby steps with music theory fundamentals. that's why i say first things first. beginners need "rules" to hang on to. the more they learn the more they can flex. it's very easy to overwhelm the beginner with too much information.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-07-2015 at 10:35 PM.
-
But maybe
Just maybe it wont be usefull for them to go into rehearsals and stop everyone to discuss and critique the incorrectness of the written music.
I actually had a bassplayer come 1 hour late to a rehearsal for a one time gig last year...
I was just the guitarist but had agreed to lead the band, and had written out half of the songs, the singer the other half.
He was late 1 hour (13€ H rentals) and seemed tired, was playing scales in all the pauses... and then he started complaining about the singers partitions... not being correct.
I told him Not only you're late but you complain ?!
Then, after that he didnt want to do the gig... and we got someone who was fast learner, played good ideas and pocket and sound, and kept his mouth shut.
They are both great musicians but, the attitude...
The ideal world doesn't exist when you are jazz musician
I've had many gigs where nothing was written and I had very little time to get the songs down, like 12 jazz orig songs, the day before rehearsal before the day of concert... the singer was then condecending projecting insecurity and complainted after a 6 hours rehearsal about me being too strict... because I had Insisted (politely) on agreeing specific on durations.
10 days to prepare 30 soul covers... no partition...
Come prepared for rehearsal the day before
Get yelled at for two hours by a stoned singer who rather want to smoke hash, than prepare as agreed on etc etc
SOooo much sh%t to adapt to as musician, that, I can garantee you :
"b3" refered to as interval, will never EVER be an issue with me.
If I Ever write a theory book it will be theory in close relation to execution on the guitar.
I've read a good load of theory books, and also some from Berkelee. ..
But a lot of them are too esoteric and I had to cook things down for usability.
I'd also explain a very simple method for playing jazz standards and understanding the language.
Most harmony books are a mess about this chord for that for that... and not specific enough about simple tradition.
But I probably wont write a book since I prefer writing music.Last edited by vhollund; 01-08-2015 at 04:16 AM.
-
Very nice, and funny stories too. It would be fun to have a thread on "your most dysfunctional, off the hook gigs and the crazy characters who made them so much fun".
Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-07-2015 at 11:48 PM.
-
Originally Posted by Reg
what the heck i'll play Reg.
a blue note is, as you put it, a note. so.... any "note" is singular. to discuss a note as an interval means that it needs a dance partner. what's the other note? (or tone)
for a relative minor you don't have to transpose. the major and its relative minor share they same key signature. no, come to think of it that's probably not correct. i don't think i have transposed a major key tune to minor, just another major key. however, measuring the distance (naming the interval) between the before and after tonic notes is straightforward.
we have really beat this one to death.Last edited by fumblefingers; 01-08-2015 at 12:03 AM.
-
Hey... read my first post about intervals... very classical Common Practice Period. hell I even forgot I was on a jazz guitar forum. I'm trying to understand why you interpret my comments as not understanding or disagreeing on basic 101 definitions of intervals...
Music fundamentals... Theory One ....might be OK for Music students... but to perform jazz... come on, Most Grad students have a tough time getting past just playing jazz tunes, let alone understand the possibilities.
vhollund as well as yourself seem to be on terminology vision quests, lets smoke the peace pipe, drink the single or whatever works... who really cares.
Does anyone not understand what an interval is... proper terminology, notation or not. Bobsguitars any confusion...
-
What ever works yes.
I'll take take the peace pipe any time as long as its green inside ;-)
(That's how far I'll push my "terminology quest")
Btw I moved to france years ago and here they have other systems
For chords and notes they use Do Re Mi...
So when I teach I write Cm but say Do mineur. Smarvelous !
They also sometimes write chord sheets in a wierd way, I where a mesure/bar is a square. (!)
Inside the square you'll see "Re min 7"
If there are two chords, the square will be slashed diagonally
When more, it will be slashed from the opposite direction creating an X, with four compartments
I'm still confused which chord to read first, when I see it.
Luckily because of Real Book, they've gone over to using the alphabet for the biggest part.
But the pupils I have, have learned do re mi... (solfege)
The Germans use Do re mi, as a pédagogical way of learning intervals
So you can risk hear a reference to the 5th as "sol" , even if the key is E major.
My advice to OP is to stop asking why this and why that.
It's not rocket science or math, but a language...
If you ask "why" for every word you learn you'll learn very slowly.
Just learn it dammit ;-)
Learn it, and adapt.
I sure am glad, I'm not learning basics anymore
Did you guys memorize the intervals for each note ..on note names ?
When I did, and in a very short period of time, I thought my head was going to explode.
Glad THAT part of learning is over.
Peace.Last edited by vhollund; 01-08-2015 at 12:16 PM.
-
sorry for any misunderstandings. and yep, admittedly picking nits on terms. (trying to think of a college professor or instructor who didn't do the same to me/my peers, regardless of field. can't think of one. maybe someday, lol) Originally Posted by Reg
and it goes without saying that I had/have no idea about how the French write charts. egads. i wonder why the American chord symbols don't jazz them, so to speak.
-
There are two types of intervals :
1.The "Real" intervals : Quarters, Fifth, and octave. These ones can only get aug or diminished. (it should be noted, b5 or #5). These intervals are the only ones allowed in medieval times !
The quarter of C is always F : Then to make the C---->F# interval, the quarter is augmented.
2.The intervals that can only be minor or major : 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th
The 3rd of C is ? 2 solutions : E or Eb. So the larger integral is called major C--->E = 3rd major, the smaller interval is called minor ; C---> Eb = 3rd minor.
So these types of intervals should be name as Maj or Min (ex : 2nd maj, 2nd min instead of b2 or #2 which make no sense here.)
-
...and then we started all over again.
-
not I, said the fly.
-
Intervals can be confusing unless you are careful to see what the language is really saying. Fumblefingers is right about "Interval quality has its own descriptive language." Might as well get a cup of coffee; this is a long post, but hope it's worth it if it helps anyone.
In informal language and conception we often use the words "note" and "pitch" as if they were identical, but they are not, and thinking of them as if they were may lead to confusion when addressing intervals. Likewise if we imagine naming differences between pitches as intervals (as may happen when we learn to recognize these pitch differences by ear and want to call them something)... "interval" may seem like a good word, but the first part of an interval name is already defined otherwise to be the distance between notes, not pitches.
Understanding some underlying conventions might help clear this up, and any and all feel free to point out any errors in what I present below...
First, let's think about the staff of written music... why it is the way it is...
Imagine that you are going to form a written way to present music. Your first attempt is logical, you start with the most fundamental element of pitch, and decide that your staff is going to represent pitches. Your staff is comprised of lines and spaces, you assign the pitches to these so they are in chromatic sequence. Because this is basically an approach that makes the staff like the paper roll in a player piano (each pitch separately represented by a line or space) you find a couple of problems with this approach.
The first problem is that each space or line represents only one pitch, so in order to avoid too many ledger lines above and below, the number of spaces and lines needs to be large - you would need six spaces and seven lines just to represent one chromatic octave on the staff.
The second problem is that when you write any diatonic scale, there are discontinuities in the line, "jumps" between the pitches are represented as variable numbers of skipped lines or spaces depending on whether the next pitch is a half or whole step away, so scales and diatonic melodies in general are hard to read smoothly.
There is the advantage that you don't need any accidentals or key signatures because each pitch is individually represented by its own line or space.
Your second attempt tries to take into account some respect for the diatonic nature of most music. You invent a convention that letter names in a scale only occur once, and now you call these "notes". You assign these notes to the spaces and lines of the staff and invent accidentals to account for any additional pitches for these notes.
Now you discover a few things. All diatonic scales now wonderfully appear on the staff as even sequences without variable gaps or steps (they all go line - space - line - space etc. for all diatonic scales in all keys) and are very easy to read, and general diatonic music is also easier to read, and read ahead. The accidental markings that would occur in the music can be aggregated into a key signature that may be memorized and applied for all the measures rather than marking each occurrence - this also makes reading easier, and you need less lines and spaces to cover more range of pitch.
This approach is a very clever convention that is also a kind of data compression which makes the music much easier to read.
But here is the thing... you have invented something called a "note" which is not the same as a pitch, because a note is strictly a position on the staff... that position does not represent a pitch, it represents a note name, letter name, and it may be any of a few pitches by virtue of accidentals and still always hold its same note name.
Pitches and notes are not the same thing. These things - Gbb Gb G G# and G## are all the same note because they all have the same note letter name, but they represent five different pitches.
So, this is where the thing about intervals comes in - intervals are the distance between notes... literally..
To understand that, be sure to understand that intervals are not the distance between pitches, but between notes - which means simply and directly the distance between two markings on the staff. Their interval name (first part of the interval name) is how may lines and spaces they are apart. It is the quality term (the second part of the interval name) that takes into account with respect to the pitches.
This is why C## to Fbb is a fourth (C to F is a distance of four line/spaces on the staff) in spite of being a half-step apart in pitch.
Hopefully all this helps...
-
I'm fairly sure no ones reading any of this ... so
If your getting into history and definitions... Isn't a pitch actually defined by it's frequency which gives it's actual sound and location. (which has changed... and may continue to do so?)
A tone is a sound of defined pitch with duration,
and a note is as you said... just a name for notational usage of either.
With jazz... performance or composition, common practice generally doesn't have much to do with a pitch being # of vibrations per second.
So is a name... something because you say so, or I say so, or because at some point in time common practice happens?
Calling C## to Fbb a fourth is only a fourth because you say so, or choose to label the sound so.
Specific notes on a staff actually do represent pitches, the pitch can have slight sound difference because of different frequency reference.
What's the point... with out reference, Interval is just space between things. Pitch is a type of resin, or the action of putting up a tent or maybe a curve ball. And I thought note was a google app., some type of smart phone or at least some type of record of something written down.
Wait maybe if in musical terms... without the proper classical understanding and usage I can't hear C## to Fbb as a fourth...
-
I hate to complicate things for you all but...
In a practical sense....
I was taught to read the distances between notes, (around when I was 17 ) a sixth always looks like a sixth for the sake of readability.
The reason why f ex augmented intervals occur in written form is happening in respect to the harmony and key, in a practical sense.
So like I said to begin with my dear friends ;-)
An Interval can be a written augmented second on paper,
and in the same time a sonical /physical minor 3rd.
You'd read an aug 2 and hear a minor 3rd
That just the practical reality of things
And still from a purely practical stand point,
Because we train our selves to hear realations between notes as intervals,
We also hear notes in chords relating to the root... as intervals.
So from a purely practical point of view, (which is the only logic that interests me as a musician),
the notes contained in chords and scales/ modes are also intervals,
Because we hear them relating to a root.
Often a melody will relate both to chords/roots and to the over all tonality in the same time
That because we create a sense of tonality that we keep through out (unless modulation) we hear the changes and the multible relations dualities makes the music talk to us in an emotional/more intelligent level, than our usual singularities might limit more or less.
Chord functionality is also determined by intervallic relations in the voicings, and from a root of chords stand point (in jazz analysis, classical is different in how we name functionality)
So in short and practical :
If I see a written interval, it IS an interval
If I hear an interval, chord note, scale note, between two pitches... it IS an interval.
And then we can determine that there are different ways of describing the intervals :
1) Written form, differs as described
2) Scale descriptions
a) with alterations (b/#) to major scale
b) with intervallic nominations (m/M/P), but as have been seen often, also b for m and always # for aug.
3) Chord terminology
Why b7 is named 7, I can only explain by history, from when the most common use of an added 7, was in a dominant chord to create the tension.
The maj7 , practically just came last in the big chord naming contest.
SO...
All of the different descriptions of intervals are still very understandable from a practical stand point.Last edited by vhollund; 01-16-2015 at 07:45 PM.
-
Reg & vhollund,
From a practical and in practice playing perspective, you are right that we hear the musical geometry and abstractly learn to recognize the invariant relationships between the sounds we play as having certain aural distances between them. We use those distances to grasp scales and chords, to understand harmony, etc. These are the relations we call "b3" etc.
These things only work (and they do work) because the relationships are pitch distances... the sound of a span of 10 semitones always has the same relative distance sound. That consistency is why we can depend on this approach.
The problem is when we don't call that span a "10", which because it is counting chromatic steps would apply universally to all situations or contexts; rather, we call it a "sixth" based on major diatonic scale steps which may not apply to the scale we are in at the moment, and if not we adjust it with accidentals.
Technically, this causes the formal interval names to be misnamed, but in practice this does not matter. Calling the 10 semitone span any consistent name (or just "knowing it" without naming it) will always allow you to recognize it as needed when you hear it, or play it when you want it to be heard. For playing music by ear, improvising, and navigating harmony, this is a critical function.
But this thing is not the same as what the formal canonical theory means by "interval". That interval is derived from the diatonic distance between notes (letter names) of the actual present scale based on the convention of notation and adjusted for quality; it is actually using the specific scale you are in to assign the naming, not using the major scale as a template and adjusting with accidentals. What we use in thinking about and playing jazz is the relative pitch distances which are based on spans within the chromatic scale, but kinda misnamed as diatonic steps of the generic major scale (and adjusted with accidentals) so we get things like "b3".
Both ways "work" until they meet at the same place and start to talk about it.Last edited by pauln; 01-16-2015 at 08:44 PM.
-
No "mis"naming Paul,
That would mean that even Beethoven was mistaken.
Only in your mind, because you want to minimize the meaning, when
In reality there is no conflict.
The intervals are also Pythagora laying out the overtones.
Finding the 5th and the octave way before our notation system was developped
Octave is from greek btw
Octo = 8
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuningLast edited by vhollund; 01-16-2015 at 10:39 PM.
-
I'm not a historian of music so I'm not following you...
Cite your Beethoven reference please, I don't follow what you mean.
Are you thinking that Pythagoras thought of the ratios 3:2 and 2:1 with reference to the numeric values of five and eight? The link you provided suggests otherwise, since they used the tetrachord as their basis.
When a modern writer says Pythagoras discovered the 3:2 ratio - "...the generator is the ratio 3:2 (i.e., the untempered perfect fifth)..." his use of the term "fifth" is his own modern term.
Something named using ancient words does not mean that the ancients used those words for that thing, or even knew about it.
-
I read it, but wish I hadn't.. ;-) Originally Posted by Reg
-
So in ten words or less... what's an interval.
-
Reg,
The distance between two notes, sonically or written.
(8) ;-)
Paul, I don't know if you at any point have studied harmony or composition, but if you have, you will know what I mean.
1) Intervals existed way before the notation system, we know, was fully developed, and 2) with a minimum of knowledge, you cannot seriously claim that Bach or Beethoven didn't know intervals as something other than the written form.
They studied ear training/intervals just like everyone else studying composition or music.
How intervals change because of different ratios/ temperaments doesn't put their existens in the conciousness of man into question
Harmony is based on intervals...
Intervals before anything else, is something you hear as a relative distance between two notes.
The written form is just a tool to serve remembering and communicating the music.
When Frederick Wilhelm in his "Treaty on the Fugue" (found in Beethovens library) lays down the rules for choral harmonisation, he means with the avoidence of "parallel 5ths", the actual sonical interval moving in parallel.
He's not talking about dots on a piece of paper, but about what really matters : the music, and the specific sound produced.
The greek term for fifth is "quint".
Still used in Europe for this interval.
Also check out more info about "Gregorian Chants"
You are extremely well spoken and I hate to be brutal about this, but it seems to me that you in parts, have invented a history that might make sense to you, but that does not have any real relation to historical evidence or chronological events.Last edited by vhollund; 01-17-2015 at 01:58 PM.
-
Man... I was joking, the subject is beat into the ground, along with everything else around it. But nice... 8 words, I'm fairly sure that was all that was needed, to explain the difference between spellings of intervals.
I totally understand your use of the word note(s). ( but then again, I did before the thread).
Lets get final words in and burn this thread...
-
Intervals may be more helpful in other areas like harmonizing melodies or counterpoint. For playing jazz, it seems to be a lot more helpful to think in terms of scale degrees relative to the chord of the moment. I think that it's with a very good reason that this has become more or less the standard for talking about modern harmony. It's good fundamental theory to know what intervals are about, but the conventions of intervals and notation of Palestrina etc. can be unwieldy in modern music.
So long as other musicians know what you're talking about, who really cares?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-17-2015 at 03:37 PM.
-
Which was actually my point and Regs also I think..
What you call "scale degrees in relation to chords"... to me, the way I hear it, its all intervals and voice-leading.
We just call it different things in different contexts
-
I don't think we are disagreeing here; as practical musicians we think of intervals as the invariant distances we hear and recognize between relative pitches, typically with respect to a tonic or root. The invariance comes from the equal steps of the chromatic scale.
The formal theory is similar but its underlying basis is the diatonic scale with its unequal steps... the counting steps come in two sizes, so measured "distance" does not relate clearly to the way one hears the distance.
There is also some confusion about the formal theory's use of ordinal and cardinal numbers, too. Regarding the latter, distance means finding the difference using subtraction... but the concept of distance is impaired by using two sizes of counting steps. Regarding the former, distance between 4 and 6 is 6-4=2, but a sixth minus a fourth is not a second, nor A-F=D (neither even makes sense). This is only accounted for by the peculiarities of the notation construction and the quality term appended to an interval name.
The formal theory of intervals is not what we use when we hear and play. Scale degrees with accidentals as needed, yes; those are the intervals we use.
Reply With Quote
Melody between melody
Today, 03:25 AM in Chord-Melody