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If I take a c major scale and # the 5 to get harmonic minor. What key am I playing in? If this is my scale? CDEFG#AB
If C is my root note
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12-28-2014 02:16 AM
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C Ionian #5 mode. The tonic chord would be CMa7#5
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Looks to me like you turned C major into the third mode of A Harmonic Minor which is C Augmented Ionian.
The scale you present is C D E F G# A B C
A Harmonic Minor is A B C D E F G# A
If you play it with C as the root, it is C Augmented Ionian
...but I'm not a theory guy, so please entertain any subsequent corrections / clarifications...
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Harmonic minor is natural minor with a major 7.
Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
1 - 2 -b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - 7 = c - d - eb - f - g - ab - b
You'll be playing that over C minor
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nothing at the key, you are playing in A minor if the G# show up somewhere in the part. If not C major. But you still dont know for sure. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
To establish a key without ambiguity you need minimal harmonic movements (cadence). Most composers play with tonal ambiguity for phrases at the time before showing their cards.
key/tonality dont equal scale
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Using C Ionian. I raise the 5 a half step I get Harmonic Minor. just wondering what key I'm in then.
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Well you can play A minor scale/note collection but still you dont have a key until you get a minimal harmonic progression like a V-I Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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But arnt there Chords that specifically go with harmonic minor and its modes? That establishes key right? the Scale first?
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using the method of sharping the 5 of any major scale to get a harmonic minor pitch collection/scale.. there has to be a way to know what key it is after the conversion no? so if I sharp the 5 of C Ionian.. what key could it be?
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CDEFGABC > relative minor ABCDEFGA > harmonic minor ABCDEFG#A
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A Harmonic Minor then?
just wanting to be sure so I don't put false information in my head.
so any conversion is simply the relative minor of the major key you are converting? The root note of the relative minor is your key?
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You need to have a reference... for just about anything musical to have a label. Other wise it's just a numbers game.
With out a reference, anything can be anything.
There are common practices examples and historic reference, but again your basing those on a reference.
There are different methods and organized approaches to creating a reference. As Takemitsu made reference to... Functional Harmony is one of the basic musical references for labeling.
If by calling C the root, your implying C as the tonal reference, then you would have a reference and the answer has some very simple choices, which would be based on the relationship your creating from raising the 5th degree. Now you would have a much smaller numbers game.... with limited number of choices.
When you say A harmonic minor... your implying A as your tonal reference.
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I'm lost now. If I sharp the 4 in C major it can now be called G Major. is this different for harmonic minor?
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The 4th in C is F so you raise the 4th to F# you now have C Lydian scale. In G major scale C is the 4th degree. The fourth mode of G is C Lydian. Music is based on math. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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The major scales have relative minor keys that share the same key signature. The relative minor is also called the Natural minor scale it has no modified notes. So you get C major scale no sharps or flats and its relative minor is A natural minor again no sharps or flats. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
A Harmonic Minor then? just wanting to be sure so I don't put false information in my head.
so any conversion is simply the relative minor of the major key you are converting? The root note of the relative minor is your key?
Now there are other minor scale melodic and harmonic and they both involve modifying the natural minor scale. Melodic Minor you're raising the 6th and 7th. Harmonic minor the 7th is raised. They are a simple formulas.
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Context: A Minor Scale. If I sharp the G by one half step. Is it A Harmonic Minor?
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Hey Bobsguitars...
You can say I have four guitars....
and then say...
-I have three instruments plus one string instrument or,
- I have Five string instruments minus one guitar...
My point is... none of your statements are wrong.... but if your talking about Guitars, that's your reference, why try and create different relationships using different terms to talk about how many guitars you have.
Music is also about references and relationships... as Docbop mentioned, somewhat mathematical. It's usually simple to keep same reference when discussing... also when playing, jazz is hard enough.
When your using a Cmaj scale as a reference and then altering notes... the basic reference is still that Cmaj scale. You can and should be aware of other possible relationships... such as using the relative min scale or root A or A min. But that would change what your talking about.... somewhat like talking about string instruments as compared to Guitars.
If your talking about C Ionian Augmented... think of C Ionian Augmented.... If your thinking of A Har. Min. think of A Har. Min., not Cmaj, then raise the 5th. then the relative Min. of Cmaj.
If your still just trying to use what you already know... Cmaj.... as a mechanical learning device to help you learn Harmonic min. Go through the entire process.... eventually know A har. min.
A Har. Min. is not only the relative Min of C Ionian Augmented.
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If have a A natural minor scale and raise G to G# it is a Harmonic minor scale. Compare the formula to what you're saying. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Natural minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 1
Harmonic minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7, 1
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A as in Key of A Harmonic Minor. right?
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I look at things simply and I'm sure the traditional theory people can give you and official answer. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
A as in Key of A Harmonic Minor. right?
There is no Key of harmonic minor, it is a type of minor scale. So if you want to write a piece of music using A harmonic minor you'd use the key signature of A minor (no sharps or flats) and sharp the G's that you write. Notice key of C major and A minor are both no sharps or flats they don't say this is major or minor that's for you eyes and ears to figure out. If I was to see a chart with no accidentals in the key signature and a lot G#'s I'd be thinking the composer is probably thinking harmonic minor.
Now 95% of my background is in Jazz schools I only studied tradition music theory in college a little. I was around arrangers and copiests and I'm sure if a chart was to be written in Harmonic minor there is some copiest shortcut or english they'd put on the chart to let the reader know to give them a heads up. In studio work if a musician has trouble reading a chart it's the copiest fault. Where in classical music sometimes they are reading old scores and it's the musician's responsibility to read the chart.
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This is how I understand it.
Functional, tonal harmony (i.e. jazz standards, bop etc)
If I play G# in the key of C, it strongly suggest a move to the note A (that is, it's a chromatic leading tone)
By extension - the chord A minor, probably via a E7 or G#o7 chord.
This would imply the A melodic or harmonic scale, which for me are the true scales of tonic minor function (although Aeolian/Natural minor can be used in descent.) You can use a G# over the A minor (Aminmaj7) which was a common colour before Miles and modal jazz started to popularise the use of G here.
It's possible you might get an A7 instead, of course, or some other chord with an A in it:
C --> E7 --> F --> E7 ---> Am (Sunny Side of the Street) Here you would tend to make the G natural over the F. You don't have to do that on an Am chord.
C--> E7 --> A7 --> Dm, E7 --> Am --> D7 -->Dm --> G7 (All of Me) Here A7 has a C# and a regular G
That's straight up classical harmony really. Learn how the alterations move and create secondary dominants.
Am will usually go to D7 before coming back round to G7. For this reason I think of D7 as the Lydian Dominant chord (it turns up far more than G7#11)
That means, use a G# over it (#11) as well the F# (the third), that is A melodic minor. Countless examples from the repertoire - Take the A Train, Little Willie Leaps has a nice one.
There's a functional difference between G# and Ab, BTW.
If I play Ab I am descending a half step back to the note G - This is a common way of altering/enriching a standard cadence - perhaps via G7 C into G7b9 C, or F C into Fm6 C, also the backdoor dominant has this note - Bb7#11 C.
This is also extremely common. Scale wise it suggests F melodic minor or Ab melodic minor (G altered), perhaps C harmonic major if that floats your boat.
So G#--->A in C, or suggests E7-->Am (or A7 or F) (Think Georgia on my Mind, for example)
Ab--->G in C, suggests Fm6, G7alt or Bb7#11--->C
Decoration of a static chord (line cliche)
Typically C, C+5, C6 (common in swing and big band type harmony)
Modally
You can also use G# as a major+5 sound, which is an interesting, exotic tonality to my ears. Experiment with the modes mentioned above.
I don't really do the names of the melodic or harmonic minor modes, as they've never stuck, and I get the sounds working from the tonic of the scale rather than the chord they fit over, hope that doesn't cause confusion.
See also Barry Harris major 6th diminished scale for another perspective on it.Last edited by christianm77; 12-29-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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As I said before... I look at what something is and call it that. If I'm performing a tune and it's in A harmonic Min. I would say the tune is in A harmonic Minor.
If I'm playing a tune that's in A min. and using Harmonic min. as source for V7 chord, why not just say what it is, the tunes in Amin and I'm using A harmonic minor for source of my V7 chord etc...
If I performing a Blues in Bb I don't say the Tunes in Eb. If the tune is in E phrygian, I wouldn't sat the tune is in C maj.
Notational aspect are a different subject.
maybe there's more to guitarist jokes than I thought.
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I'm not sure if I understand the distinction you are drawing. Originally Posted by Reg
Some music is modally harmonic minor (some Middle Eastern stuff for example) and perhaps suggests i, iv, V harmonisation, but is not primarily harmonic.
On the other hand, you have Common Practice Harmony. Bach's mass is in B minor, not B harmonic, melodic or natural minor, and he uses all three common practice scales on Bm as well as functional relationships to other keys, secondary dominants and so on.
Mainstream jazz harmony comes somewhere as a compromise between purely coloristic and purely functional harmony. I think different people view it different. I'm mega - functional. I like to see extensions or rather superimposed tonalities (e.g. Em on C) subject to their own functional relationships expressed through melodic voice leading.
Other people like the vertical chord/scale thing better.
The blues is something of an exception as we add the b7 (or even a b3) colouristically to a major chord and call it a tonic. That's a big breaking point with classical harmony, of course, and can be introduced in jazz to any tune with functional harmony. I don't really see that as having anything to do with the major mode system, All Blues nonwithstanding. Historically, I see it as having to do with blues scale melody, which can be incorporated into harmony. In modern/contemporary jazz of course, you can do what you like.Last edited by christianm77; 12-30-2014 at 06:32 PM.
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oops, terminology problems here. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
"Root" is for chords, not keys, scales, or modes. You mean tonic, or final.
What "key" are you in? Since you already named it (harmonic minor), it's A minor. The End.
But if you mean "mode", and with C as the final, then it's the third mode of A Harmonic Minor.
I realize that you don't mean it this way but the way you've phrased things reads like a trick question. Context would be helpful. Are you speaking in the abstract or in relation to a particular tune/piece of music?Last edited by fumblefingers; 12-30-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by TOMMO
he meant relative minor. that threw me too. a weird way to derive harmonic minor. harmonic minor does not have an augmented fifth relative to the tonic, obviously.
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