Harmonic Minor Scale Question

[fumblefingers]

But arnt there Chords that specifically go with harmonic minor and its modes? That establishes key right? the Scale first?

yes there are Chords that specifically go with harmonic minor. that's why they call it HARMONIC minor. literally, not trying to be a smart ass.

if you're in a minor key how else do you get a Dom7 for the five chord? (and you do want that V7 chord. come to think of it, that minor sub-dominant chord is kinda nice for minor key sound too. OK, that last one was smart ass)

[fumblefingers]

Context: A Minor Scale. If I sharp the G by one half step. Is it A Harmonic Minor?

if you mean scale when you say "it", then yes.

and it would be more proper to say "raise the G by half-step", or "sharp the G".

[TOMMO]

he meant relative minor. that threw me too. a weird way to derive harmonic minor. harmonic minor does not have an augmented fifth relative to the tonic, obviously.

Oh - I see!

[Reg]

Hey fumblefingers... Terminology changes and can have different applications. your traditional terminology works for traditional music... come on who calls the 1st degree of a scale the tonic or the 3rd a mediant... and final. We are talking about jazz right, OK lets make sure we stack the notes in 3rds so we can use the term Root.

I don't believe terminology was the only point of confusion. Obviously it's always one.

Hey Christianm... I dig your approach... just don't play that way. I think if you play the old standards, from pop musicals and shows etc... Harmonic min was the common choice for developing dominant chords in minor, and progressions in general. And if your going to play Bach or any notated music... it doesn't matter what one calls it... your reading or playing music that doesn't involve making choices of what to play.

When you use extensions and superimpose tonalities such as Emin on C ... what are the tonalities, are you really creating target functional relationships. Voice leading is just a method of realizing what your playing usually in the simplest manor.

I personally like both approaches, vertical and horizontal, it's implied whether one hears it or not, might as well hear it. Doesn't mean you need to play everything etc...

The distinction is very simple... what the reference is. References change as fast as fast changes and generally there are many references working together. Amin dorian is very different from A Har. Min... and generally most musical relationships have somewhat common practice... again very different development of relationships from reference of A har min. as compared to other minors. There not all one minor with embellishments. If you play and hear that way, maybe there's more.

If you view blues harmony or melodic aspects as an exception... your missing much of what playing jazz is about. Not just subjectively but structurally. I know you said you've checked out some of my vids or music posts... I would love to hear something from you, just to hear how you play, what you use as references. I read your approach to All of Me... we might be in different musical worlds... no good, bad, right or wrong... but different.

[fumblefingers]

Hey fumblefingers... Terminology changes and can have different applications. your traditional terminology works for traditional music... come on who calls the 1st degree of a scale the tonic or the 3rd a mediant... and final. We are talking about jazz right, OK lets make sure we stack the notes in 3rds so we can use the term Root.

I don't believe terminology was the only point of confusion. Obviously it's always one.

Hey Christianm... I dig your approach... just don't play that way. I think if you play the old standards, from pop musicals and shows etc... Harmonic min was the common choice for developing dominant chords in minor, and progressions in general. And if your going to play Bach or any notated music... it doesn't matter what one calls it... your reading or playing music that doesn't involve making choices of what to play.

When you use extensions and superimpose tonalities such as Emin on C ... what are the tonalities, are you really creating target functional relationships. Voice leading is just a method of realizing what your playing usually in the simplest manor.

I personally like both approaches, vertical and horizontal, it's implied whether one hears it or not, might as well hear it. Doesn't mean you need to play everything etc...

The distinction is very simple... what the reference is. References change as fast as fast changes and generally there are many references working together. Amin dorian is very different from A Har. Min... and generally most musical relationships have somewhat common practice... again very different development of relationships from reference of A har min. as compared to other minors. There not all one minor with embellishments. If you play and hear that way, maybe there's more.

If you view blues harmony or melodic aspects as an exception... your missing much of what playing jazz is about. Not just subjectively but structurally. I know you said you've checked out some of my vids or music posts... I would love to hear something from you, just to hear how you play, what you use as references. I read your approach to All of Me... we might be in different musical worlds... no good, bad, right or wrong... but different.

yeah, nobody uses "final" although they probably should. that's a moldy cobweb of a term at this point. but on the other hand, traditional theory got their first so unless its been improved upon... one problem with "jazz theory" is that it may convince some that it's original/complete when it's neither. but you know all that.

you frequently bring up "references". well of course the common reference for teaching harmonic minor is minor, not major. first one gets over the small hurdle of understanding the difference between major and minor, them harmonic and melodic minor are explained. taught that way everywhere.

so the "sharp the 5th in a major scale to get harmonic minor then get lost in the process all because it seems fun and interesting" gambit is lost on me. another version of "sacred geometry" i guess? there have been a few guitarist stereotype comments made here lately so i'll throw another one on the pile and it is this - we males are endless nerds and tinkerers. this seems like an example of making something simple like a scale into a rubik's cube with a nifty cipher/decoder ring.

unnecessary.

you know what else is unnecessary? - those goofy arcane names some jazzers insist on using for the modes of melodic and harmonic minor scales.

ok i'll offer some constructive advice. if one wants to learn the harmonic minor scale and its modes on the guitar try:

Scale Pattern Studies for the Guitar, Shearer
The Progressive Guitarist, Scale Patterns, Latarski
A Modern Method for Guitar Volume 3, Leavitt

cheers.

[docbop]

yeah, nobody uses "final" although they probably should. that's a moldy cobweb of a term at this point. but on the other hand, traditional theory got their first so unless its been improved upon... one problem with "jazz theory" is that it may convince some that it's original/complete when it's neither. but you know all that.

you frequently bring up "references". well of course the common reference for teaching harmonic minor is minor, not major. first one gets over the small hurdle of understanding the difference between major and minor, them harmonic and melodic minor are explained. taught that way everywhere.

so the "sharp the 5th in a major scale to get harmonic minor then get lost in the process all because it seems fun and interesting" gambit is lost on me. another version of "sacred geometry" i guess? there have been a few guitarist stereotype comments made here lately so i'll throw another one on the pile and it is this - we males are endless nerds and tinkerers. this seems like an example of making something simple like a scale into a rubik's cube with a nifty cipher/decoder ring.

unnecessary.

you know what else is unnecessary? - those goofy arcane names some jazzers insist on using for the modes of melodic and harmonic minor scales.

ok i'll offer some constructive advice. if one wants to learn the harmonic minor scale and its modes on the guitar try:

Scale Pattern Studies for the Guitar, Shearer
The Progressive Guitarist, Scale Patterns, Latarski
A Modern Method for Guitar Volume 3, Leavitt

cheers.

Time to mention Harmonic Major yet??? <grin> Hey it's popular with newer players.

[fumblefingers]

They've been teaching it at a Berklee for decades, Tuttle brought it to Dick Grove's...

[docbop]

They've been teaching it at a Berklee for decades, Tuttle brought it to Dick Grove's...

Didn't hear of it till recently. Russ Tuttle was one of my teachers at Grove and even a few private lessons.

[Reg]

Yea it's an odd scale, Somewhat just like jazz players started to add #9 to harmonic min. V7b9b13 chord years ago etc..

I also add the #9... basically filling in the awkward gap. which also sounds cool with the other chords -7b5s and maj7 #5s.

[fumblefingers]

a 19th century scale named by Rimsky Korsakov? Also covered in Slonimsky's thesaurus and the Lydian Chromatic Concept? Dan Haerle devotes half a page to this synthetic scale in The Jazz Language, which was written in 1980 and has been used at UNT for a long time (Jazz Fundamentals I and II classes which supplement the two years of traditional theory).

I don't recall spending any time on it in school but I'm confident that it was covered. Just another scale to learn...

[bobsguitars09]

oops, terminology problems here.

"Root" is for chords, not keys, scales, or modes. You mean tonic, or final.

What "key" are you in? Since you already named it (harmonic minor), it's A minor. The End.

But if you mean "mode", and with C as the final, then it's the third mode of A Harmonic Minor.


I realize that you don't mean it this way but the way you've phrased things reads like a trick question. Context would be helpful. Are you speaking in the abstract or in relation to a particular tune/piece of music?

Ive seen root note for scales in many books. Which begs the question. Why have two names for the same thing anyway? It's a label for context isn't it? So root note is the starting tone right? Confused

[bobsguitars09]

Thank you so much everyone. Reading through the answers here.