The origin of the minor subdominants

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

The origin of the minor subdominants

If you don’t know about minor sub-dominants ,see first this lesson from Jens Larsen :

IV minor chords in a major key - Jens Larsen

The five minor subdominants are

II min7b5, IVmin, bVI maj, V7/bIII, bII maj

Extensions are possible:

II Locrian9, IVminMaj , bVI Lydian augmented, Bb7 Bartok and bIImaj7#9#11, as we will see after.


We will take the Cmajor scale in the following exemples :

1) The V7 is substituted by a sub- dominant minor(see the Jens Larsen lesson)
Dm/ DbMaj7/ C
Dm /Fm /C
Dm/ Bb7 /C
Dm/ AbMaj7#11/ C

2)IIm7 substituted by a sub dominant minor(see the Jens Larsen lesson)

Dmin7b5/ G7/ C
Abmaj7#11/ G7/ C


My point is : from wich scales are derived those chords?

Let’s take the Schoenberg ‘s parallel minor regions of the C major scale with their relative major regions :

Relative Major tonality _______Parallel minor tonality________Tonic Scale_______________Relative minor

Eb major scale______Cminor scale_______Cmajor scale______Aminor natural scale

Ab major scale______Fminor scales_______Fmajor scale______Dminor scale

Bbmajor scale_______Gminor scale_______G major scale_____Eminor scale


-Fmin, Ab Maj7#11 , Bb7 and Dm7b5 are coming from the relative Major tonality EbMajor scale , of the parallel minor tonality of Cmajor :Cminor scale


-DbMaj comes from the bVI major degree of the Fminor natural scale, the parallel minor tonality of Fmajor scale, the subdominant scale of Cmajor scale.

EXTENSIONS:

FminMajor, Ab Lydian Augmented, Bb7#11 Bartok, and Dm7b5Locrian9 are coming from F melodic minor ,the parallel melodic minor tonality of the F major scale.

Dbmaj7 #9#11 does come from F harmonic minor, the parallel harmonic minor tonality of the Fmajor scale.

Those extensions were not planned by Schoenberg. In his book ,”Theory of harmony,1922,”, he is only talking about the “F minor scale”

Cheers
HB

[Melodic Dreamer]

I need time to sit with this. I'll be back.

[Reg]

So what make something subdominant... with relationship to jazz. Not a trick question.

[Takemitsu]

I would like to help here but I am not sure what the question is since it seems to me that you answer:

quote: from wich scales are derived those chords?

by

quote: -Fmin, Ab Maj7#11 , Bb7 and Dm7b5 are coming from the relative Major tonality EbMajor scale , of the parallel minor tonality of Cmajor :Cminor scale


-DbMaj comes from the bVI major degree of the Fminor natural scale, the parallel minor tonality of Fmajor scale, the subdominant scale of Cmajor scale.

Maybe I dont understand what you question is maybe you could rephrase it with the specific chords you are talking about. Thank you

[Reg]

Sorry for not being clear.... was trying to get out the understanding of what makes a chord or scale.... sub dominant.

I understand sub dominant to mean or imply a type of harmonic function. Function meaning how a specific chord or scale is working or creating movement... musical motion. Typically derived from harmonic formula which creates some type of cadence... implying a tonal reference. Jazz also uses modal concepts to create function. These modal concepts are related to modal characteristic pitches from each mode.

Sub dominant... from this modal concept, implies the characteristic pitch of Major (ionian) the 4th degree or "F", being a chord tone of Sub dominant chords. Key of "C"... The II-7 and IVma7 chords.

This application of creating function works with all modes, the use of characteristic pitch. Along with traditional functional harmony based on cadences from organized harmonic movement with tonal references.

Long story short... most of the SDM examples are derived by using Modal Interchange as source for deriving. Altering a root in functional harmony is somewhat an oxymoron... Functional Harmony is based on root motion. bIImaj7 is generally from modal interchange using parallel Phrygian.

As I was saying above...sometimes in jazz the pitches derived from using Modal Interchange create a type of functional reference. The modal interchange to C Natural Minor... The characteristic pitch of C aeolian is scale degree... b6.

The chords built on Scale degrees from Parallel Minor... C- aeolian, can have different reference... Cmaj or Cmin. The chords with out that b6th or Ab generally still can be heard with reference to Cmaj., the chords with that Ab generally have reference to C- resulting with the Sub dominant minor label

No right or wrong... but different understanding of source... which can lead to different results when creating relationships and development etc...

[Takemitsu]

Just to clarify

I think in this case, the term sub dominant should be understand as dominant preparation which is a common use of the word and NOT as IV degree.

In general functional harmony use 3 types of chord/functions: Tonic, dominant preparation (or sub-dominant) and dominant.

Or: rest-building tension-unbereable tension-release

in major mode I is tonic (rest), ii and IV are sub-dominants (buildup) and V and vii are dominants (tension)(physically...trirone)

in minor i is tonic, ii, IV, bVI and somewhat bVII are sub-dominants and V and vii are dominants.

If you want to write any complete harmonic progression in the tonal system there is a simple formula

1)start with playing the tonic (or not)
2)play as many subdominants as you want
3)play a dominant
4)play the tonic

...then yo just defined a key

VI degree in major can be placed in the tonic group

now what I think the op original minor sub-dominant idea is:

Borrow the sub-dominants in the parallel minor mode and bring it into the major mode.

so: as an example (in C major)

C-Fminor-G7-C

or

C-Dmb5-G7-C

Does that makes sense, am I in the ballpark?

edit: I forgot to mention that bII major (the so-called Neapolitan chord) is also in the sub-dominant family (as the italian 6th, the german 6th and one day I hope the canadian 6th)

So the origin of the Neapolitan is not in a mode. In fact it is an ornamented IV-V-I

To play N6 with the bII in the bass is not that well sounding, now try with the 3rd in the root...AHA!

lets say we are in Cminor


iv-V-I
Fmin-G-Cmin


now ornement the fifth of the Fmin chord playing something C-Db-C-DB-C-DB-C-Db (time consuming way to write a trill)

and then go on resolving G-C

sounds great no?

Now instead of doing the trill just stick with Db

you got the origin of the bII right there!


edit2: it is worth mentioning that advanced sub-dominants often sound better with something else that the root in the bass

[NSJ]

I subscribe to Jens' YouTube channel and watched the lesson. I try to simplify much as possible, in a way that I can use information on a practical level when it comes to playing.The essential thing that I got from YouTube lesson was that one can create tension by borrowing certain chords associated from the key associated with the parallel minor--specifically, if one is playing in C, one can borrow the following forwards from the key of Eb-- ii, IV, V and vii. The point of borrowing these chords is to create tension that can be resolved by the I chord. Or not.

[Reg]

That's good with me NSJ, your creating a reference and using it. Application of SDM chords. What about parallel Lydian or Dorian sub dominant chords.

Hey Takemitsu... I believe we are talking about different subjects... My 1st question was what creates a sub dominant chord or note collection. ( in a jazz context... right). Anyway, not the sources but what defines sub dominant structurally.

So yea... functional harmony is one... pretty straight ahead, from a classical perspective. But maybe there are other perspectives... other sets of guidelines other that The Tonal System your using for a reference.

Personally I don't use 17th century bIImaj7 chord organization from IV-6 or any of the Neapolitan sources when performing jazz, although is always great music questions for music undergrads. And yes they both have a sub dominant sound. Which is why I was asking what creates Sub Dominant, the sound of sub dominant, and again with reference to Jazz.

But we seem to have different ears... not good or bad, different.

I use modal interchange as a somewhat extension of the borrowed chord concept, and also use characteristic modal pitches as organizational tool for extending functional harmony movement organization. It's obviously not anything new... But sub dominant can becomes much more than just prep for Dominant.

[Takemitsu]

So yea... functional harmony is one... pretty straight ahead, from a classical perspective. But maybe there are other perspectives... other sets of guidelines other that The Tonal System your using for a reference.

of course there are other perspective on music (like set theory, you got to look at this if you didn't already). But as soon as you are working with tonic, sub-dominants (your subject) and dominant we are talking about tonal functions or maybe im crazy (very possible!). All this is based on physics (overtone serie) so as much prospective there are... the octave, fifth and major third will always be more consonant than tritone (tension/dominant)

Personally I don't use 17th century bIImaj7 chord organization from IV-6 or any of the Neapolitan sources when performing jazz

I agree it would be crazy thinking about this while performing! This said, this way of organizing chords is not only 17th century, this is also the way Schoenberg understood it The Neapolitan name is just "folklore". Not fun to play live from but fun to know WHY.

Just for fun lets try this for what makes a subdominant a subdominant.

What are the most stable notes in the major scale: tonic, 3rd and 5th
what is the most unstable note in the major scale: 7th, it want to go to the fundamental (semitone up) (just acoustic science)
what are the remaining degrees? 4th and 6th (or b6)

so by magic the II chord and IV chords are the ones with the 4th and the 6th and are subdominant Also all the special subdominants include them and/or the b6

This is probably not the answer you are looking for but I am having a blast discussing theory. I am not in a confrontational mood, I just love this stuff.

I would be very interested in understanding what you mean by "characteristic modal pitches as organizational tool for extending functional harmony movement organization"

I feel I am missing something very interesting but cannot grasp it. Can you give me an example of how your organize a functional harmonic movement with modes characteristics?


edit: you said : "But sub dominant can becomes much more than just prep for Dominant" so then why call them subdominants? functional harmony IS tonic/dominant play.

[jtizzle]

Minor IV chords can also function as dominant, not only as subdominant. But that's a whole different process, which I'd be glad to explain if anyone is curious. But yeah, not limited to the subdominant function.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

So what make something subdominant... with relationship to jazz. Not a trick question.

play as many subdominants as you want

I'll tend to clarify the situation.

THE SUBDOMINANTS MINORS

Are diatonic chords borrowed from parallel minor Keys
We take, ie, Cmajor Scale

Chords borrowed from C min natural, F min natural, and C Phrygian

DLocrian, II min7b5, does come from C nat minor ,the parallel minor of C major

F minor, IVmin, does come from F nat minor ,the parallel minor Key of F major ,the subdominant of C major scale

Ab major#11,bVi maj, from C natural minor

Bb7 Mixolidian ,V7/bIII (or bVII7)from C min natural

Dbmaj#11,bII maj from C Phrygian


Chords borrowed from others minor Scales

D Locrian 9 from F Melodic minor
D Locrian 6 from C Harmonic minor
DDorian b5 from C Harmonic Major

F minMajor 6,7 from F Melodic minor
FminMaj b6,7 from C Harmonic major
F min#11 from C harmonic minor
F jazz min#11 from C harmonic Major

AbLydian Augmented from F melodic minor
Abmaj7 #5 from F harmonic minor
Ab maj7 #9#11 from C harmonic minor

Bb7#11 from F melodic minor


Dbmaj7#9#11 from F harmonic minor

Those are the principal subdominants minor.

But others subdominant minors does exist ,less often used.

Exemple:Eb maj7,bIIImaj,from C min natural or C Dorian ,G min7 or Vmin from C natural minor

It is always advised, if you will keep the original tone, in order to modify only the color,
to use only one or two following subdominants minors.

If you chain 3 or more borrowed chords Takemitsu,,you will induce a real modulation (change of harmonization).The same if you chain with the V7,VII or III of the borrowed scale(Schoenberg)

[Takemitsu]

Bergamotte:

I dont think I mentioned chaining "borrowed chords". I only talked about II, IV, bII and the parallel ii and iv which cannot by themselves create a modulation. To modulate you need a dominant or you can pretend you modulated but it will be highly unstable and will be able to be attributed to several tonalities.

Of course V7, VII will induce modulation, they are not subdominants but dominants. (Because they include a tritone which is basically what a dominant is)

Ill take time to read and understand clearly your post. Thanks for taking the time to write all this. Good stuff.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

To modulate you need a dominant or you can pretend you modulated but it will be highly unstable and will be able to be attributed to several tonalities.

Well,that's a very contested point...

That was the opinion of my harmony educators,and also of Jonny Pack in this forum a few months ago.
But it really becomes very instable,you 're absolutely right.
I would always put a Dominant if I will modulate. That was the Schoenberg opinion also!

Cheers

HB

[JensL]

So what make something subdominant... with relationship to jazz. Not a trick question.

That's actually an interesting question. I guess if I look at the chords I call minor subdominant it would have to be a chord with the minor 6th and not the 7th of the scale. I guess I assign the function by ear and it requires a context so a definition is a bit difficult, and in a way also a bit meaningless.

Personally I don't use 17th century bIImaj7 chord organization from IV-6 or any of the Neapolitan sources when performing jazz, although is always great music questions for music undergrads. And yes they both have a sub dominant sound. Which is why I was asking what creates Sub Dominant, the sound of sub dominant, and again with reference to Jazz.

I use modal interchange as a somewhat extension of the borrowed chord concept, and also use characteristic modal pitches as organizational tool for extending functional harmony movement organization. It's obviously not anything new... But sub dominant can becomes much more than just prep for Dominant.

What I like about the functional categories when I analyze standards is that they seem to fit well in explaining the progressions and (perhaps this is more important) I can relate them to progressions that I know from pop music that I have listened to all my life. THis makes it easier to hear them and gives me a reference on another level than just the analysis. I don't have a reference like that with Jazz since I have not been listening to it for more than 15 years.

I'd agree that IVm stuff is much much more than a preparation for a dominant, in fact I most of the pop progressions with it are IV IVm I type stuff.

Jens

[Vladan]

I enjoy all this hi end stuff. Can't really follow. Whatever ...

Whenever I hear "IV ivm I" I think "Oh When The Saints", which is, if I understood correctly, 8 bar blues.
Also, in that context ivm, as far as I'm concerned, one gets by substituting
IV(Maj7) -> iim7 (relative m of IV) -> iim7b5 (which is just sounds good and is just about the same as ivm6) -> ivm7

That's my dummy way to see it.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

functional harmony IS tonic/dominant play.

Well,it's a little too short..
I did learn,several years ago from my instructor in Jazz Harmony the following sentences:

V/I is the perfect cadence
I/V is the half cadence
IV/I/V/I or II/I/V/I is the Italian cadence
V/I6 is the imperfect cadence
V/VI is the avoided cadence
V/followed bya chromatic chord is the worn-out cadence
II/V is the half cadence
II/V/I is the jazz cadence
IV/I, II/I VI/I or bII/I are plagal cadence
I/IV/V the blues and rock cadence
I/VI/II/V in French,l'anatole; and how does it translate in English ?
I/I7/IV7/IVm7 in French,le Christophe,how do you call that in English?

Of course V7, VII will induce modulation, they are not subdominants but dominants

Yes.
Could you see my post on the secondary dominants,and tell me what you think?

DIATONIC AND CHROMATIC SECONDARY DOMINANTS WITH THE SCHOENBERG VISIONS OF CLUSTERS OF RELATED
SCALES, 11-20-2014
cheers
HB

[Reg]

Yea this is good topic...

Personally when trying to understand musical theory concepts and getting into the principles and guidelines from which it is created from... I also need to understand the basic question that started it in the first place.

And with harmony and chord progressions, I look and hear their tonal relationships, functions... what makes the chord progression move, to where and why. All this is with reference to how it sounds, how do I hear that progression within a tonal(s) reference.

Harmonic theory tries to explain chord progressions and supply a system of labels of each chord and their relationship to other chords and it's tonal center. It's not just a set of rules of what not to do, or what is right or wrong.

And there have been two approaches to creating harmonic theory... one is called Dialectic approach, explains harmony as the result of resolution of contradictions. The result of the process of emergence from the play of musical forces.

As compared to the completion of a template developed from physical laws.

Hindemith like Harmonic series, Bartok like symmetrical divisions of the octave, Ramean and Zarlino like series of vibrations or harmonic proportions, Hauptmann like cadence patterns, I- IV- I- V- I and then Reimans somewhat link between physical and dialectical, logical sound or Functional Harmony. Schoenbergs... Structural Functions of Harmony, which deals with problems of key relationships, modulations from his earlier Theory of harmony.

Basically one approach is a closed system and one is constantly growing from musical intellect and the result of composition and for jazz... performance.

Sorry this is way to much BS...

The older version of Functional Harmony, Fundamental Progression, cadence patterns etc... all of which explain the relationship of a chord to a tonal center have expanded, tonality has expanded. Modal harmony is used as a means of expanding guidelines and functions of tonal harmony, somewhat like tonic min, sub dominant min and mediant methods of
of realizing and labeling chords with relation to one tonal center.

Root progressions are still the basis of harmonic explanations but not the only one. And again not... what not to do, what is possible.

Takemitsu... great info, and yea Set Theory is cool. I hear and understand the 4th degree of maj to be the most unstable.
Characteristic pitches or notes are the note that define a mode, with reference to maj or min.
Ionian.... 4th
Dorian.... nat 6th
Phry........b2
Lyd.........#4
Mixo........b7
Aeol........b6
Loc.........b5 with some modal systems, the characteristic Pitch (CP), is not a chord tone so Locrian has complications.

jtizzle... yea Sub dominant and Dom chords cam become tonic... would dig your views.

HB... I dig relationships created from Sub Dominant sources of borrowing or Modal Interchange. also borrowing from relative mediant and other scale degrees... and the next level of relationships, borrowing or modal interchange with expanded and already borrowed chords and subs.

Jens...I agree, personally it's all about hearing, but I hear sub dominant as chords with the 4th in or implied, yea without context or reference.... I don't know about being meaningless, the concept of sub dominant is large part of how compose and perform. How I create the context in existing situations.

[JensL]

Jens...I agree, personally it's all about hearing, but I hear sub dominant as chords with the 4th in or implied, yea without context or reference.... I don't know about being meaningless, the concept of sub dominant is large part of how compose and perform. How I create the context in existing situations.

Cool! Just so I understand what you mean..
So to keep it in C major, you have AbMaj7 as something else than subdominant minor or you hear the F as implied?

I was not calling any sub dominant defininition meaningless, just the one I wrote down myself. I tend to define or categorize them through context so that would to me make the most sense, and I don't really have a strict definintion. It is indeed one of the first things I start messing with when I improvise and when I compose too.

I don't understand this: "I hear sub dominant as chords with the 4th in or implied, yea without context or reference...." surely an AbMaj7 is a tonic in one key and a Sub dominant in another? Out of context it is just a chord (to me anyway..)

Jens

[Takemitsu]

Good stuff!
I suggest that for those who consider the subdominant to have a different function than dominant préparation to Hunt for a different vocabulary since subdominant clearly point toward a systèm where you oscillate between two pôles wich, until I assimilate all your posts, I considèr the tonal systèm.

Have a Nice day

[jtizzle]

Hey Reg, not actually tonic function (although that exists as well, in a more basic view), but they can function as dominant.
I studied this topic via Steve Coleman, although he did not originate the idea, his music has been the one to bring the topic over to the jazz world (it's heavily used in classical music). A lot of people call it harmonic duality, polarity, whatever. Steve calls it Harmonic polarity, I like to call it negative harmony.
Take the overtone series, precisely partials 1-7, C C G C E G Bb. Let's use C as the fundamental for ease. If you take the first 6 partials, you will find a major triad in partials 4,5, and 6. Partial 7 gives you a Bb, which all together creates a dominant chord. The dominant chord here, with the root C, creates a pull to the subdominant. Note that the root of the chord created is the same as the fundamental.
Take C as our fundamental again, but this time we're going to create an overtone series in reverse. Again, through partials 1-7. We have C C F C Ab F D. We have a chord here that takes the same place of the dominant chord in the regular overtone series, but it's not a dominant chord (although there is a tritone). The triad we see in partials 4, 5, and 6 are an F minor triad (subdominant, where the regular overtone series was pulling to), and the 7th gives you a D, which just as in the normal overtone series, is the second part of the tritone.
Now for ease of language, I will name the first overtone series the positive one, and the second one the negative one.
The big difference between both series is that the positive one pulls away from the fundamental. We know this because basic theory tells us to resolve dominant chords to a tonic a 5th below. The negative series creates a different type of pull. An F-6 chord that through basic theory we don't know where it leads.
But think of this. The positive series, the triad created is the same root as our fundamental, but the negative series creates a triad who's root is not our fundamental. The first reaction is to try to bring it back to the fundamental. By doing so directly, you create a sound that is similar to a dominant sound.
Going further, you can create a scale layout by knowing that F-6 (or -G7) resolves to a form of C. You have F Ab C D and C. There's 5 notes that will greatly help you into assembling a scale. If you put this in order, you have: C D F G Ab. By knowing basic key signatures, you know you can't have an Ab without Bb and Eb, so add that to your scale. C D Eb F G Ab Bb (note, this is an Eb major scale, or C aeloian). So now we know that not only does tonal polarity reverse our dominants, it also changes the quality of our tonic. Now here's another interesting thought.
Now, adding to that scale thought, take the fact that intervals have inversions. Coincidentally, the inversion of a 4th is a 5th, which is what we are working with in tonal polarity. If we reverse the order of our scale and make it C Bb Ab G F Eb D C, we have a scale that not only shows our V-I relationship of F and C, but also shows the correct presentation of a negative scale.

The traditional resolution of a V I tritone is the third goes up to the root, and the 7th goes down to the third. So in G7 - C, the tritone would resolve as B - C and F - E. In negative harmony, you have what looks like a iv - i that functions as a V - I. The tritone here, Ab and D resolves very similarly to the positive tritone. The 3rd, Ab resolves to the 5th, and the 6th, D resolves to the 3rd. So you have Ab - G and D - Eb.
The differences between both is that while we have a 7th/6th that resolves to the third by half step, we have a third that resolves to the root in the positive progression, but a third that resolves to the fifth in the negative progression. This can be seen as a reflection of the same difference that is seen in the overtone series, where the triad created in the positive has a root that equals the fundamental, and the negative has a triad who's root is not equals to the fundamental.

Lastly in this topic, is the fact that since F-6/-G7 is a dominant, we can run this by the diminished cycle that we can apply to dominant chords. This gives you three additional negative dominants which can be used to resolve to tonics. F-6/-G7, through application of the diminished cycle, can resolve to C, Eb, Gb, and A.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

SUBDOMINANTS MINORS REPLACING a II V I cadence

IN C MAJOR:

replacing Dm/G7/C:
try them on your guitar!

1° bIImaj replacing V7 (G7)

Dm/Db11+/Cmaj7
Dm/Dbmaj7#5/Cmaj7
Dm/Db Lydian Augmented/Cmaj7
Dm/Db Lydian#9/Cmaj7
Dm/Db maj7#9#6/Cmaj7
Dm/Dbmaj7 b9b6/Cmaj7
Dm/Db symmetrical+/Cmaj7
Dm/Db Messiaen3/Cmaj7
Dm/DbMessiaen4/Cmaj7

2°a/ IImin7b5 replacing V7(G7)

Dm/DLocrian/Cmaj7
Dm/DLocrian9/Cmaj7
Dm/DLocrian6/Cmaj7
Dm/D Dorianb5/Cmaj7

2°b/IImin7b5 replacing IImin(Dmin)

D Locrian/G7/Cmaj7
D Locrian9/G7/Cmaj7
Dlocrian6/G7/Cmaj7
D Dorianb5/G7/Cmaj7

3°a/IV min replacing V7(G7)

Dm/Fmin/Cmaj7
Dm/F Melodic minor/Cmaj7
Dm/F Harmonic minor/Cmaj7
Dm/Fmin11+/Cmaj7
Dm/F jazzmin11+/Cmaj7

3°b/IVmin replacing IImin(Dmin)

Fmin/G7/Cmaj7
F melodic minor/G7/Cmaj7
F Harmonic minor/G7/Cmaj7
Fmin11+/G7/Cmaj7
F jazzmin11+/G7/Cmaj7

4°a/bVI maj replacing V7(G7)

Dm/Abmaj11+/Cmaj7
Dm/Abmaj7#5/Cmaj7
Dm/AbLydian Augmented/Cmaj7
Dm/Ab Lydian#9/Cmaj7
Dm/Abmaj7 #9#6/Cmaj7
Dm/Abmaj7 b9b6/Cmaj7
Dm/Ab Symmetrical+/Cmaj7
Dm/Ab Messiaen 3/Cmaj7
Dm/Ab Messiaen4/Cmaj7

4°b/ bVI maj replacing IIm(Dmin)

Abmaj11+/ G7/Cmaj7
Abmaj7#5/G7/Cmaj7
Ab Lydian Augmented/G7/Cmaj7
Ab Lydian#9/G7/Cmaj7
Abmaj7#9#6/G7/Cmaj7
Abmaj7 b9b6/G7/Cmaj7
Ab Summetrical+/G7/Cmaj7
AbMessiaen 3/G7/Cmaj7
Ab Messiaen4 /G7/Cmaj7

5° VII7(or V7/bIII) replacing V7(G7)

Dm/Bb7/Cmaj7
Dm/Bb7#115 13/Cmaj7
Dm/Bb7#11 5+ 13/Cmaj7
Dm/Bb7#11 5 b13/Cmaj7 (b13 does create a strange sound when returning on Cmaj7)

[Reg]

Jens... My comments were in reference to Sub Dominant chords... with reference to Cmaj.

Different set of chords when we modal interchange or borrow Nat Min chords for maj key progression.

With Cmaj... the 4th is "F"... Both D-7 and Fmaj7 have pitch and sub dominant sound. (sorry Takemitsu about incorrect use of term sub dominant, like I said, the guidelines have changed, you don't have to, I'm alright with that.)

And B-7b5 is complicated.

Now if we change or borrow the relative Nat. Min. arrangement of chords, diatonic to A nat min etc... we use modal interchange and transpose that Nat. Min arrangement of chords to "C" We're changing the functional analysis or the sound of the diatonic chords now based on "C", now Cmin. That note sub dominant note "F" has been transposed to become "Ab". Which is now the b6th of tonal reference C nat min. That b6th or "Ab" is the characteristic pitch of Nat Min or Aeolian.

So the tonic minor chords don't contain the CP "Ab" as chord tone... you probable already get this.... so anyway you end up with Sub Dominant Minor chords...II-7b5, IV-7, bVIma7, (your Abmaj7), and bVII7.

So you can go through this same process with Dorian, Phrygian etc... whatever Modal Interchange you chose and end up with fairly organized method of deriving functional analysis and more important... what the new chords created by borrowing or modal Interchange sound like.

I generally use the term Modal Interchange because of the use of modal characteristic notes and the borrowing concept.

And of course... same process with MM, HM etc... does become more complicated because of characteristics of other scales structurally and with how they have developed common practice.

Hey HB... great work going through the process of playing the numbers game plug and play. Everyone should. And again
with reference to the two approaches to creating harmonic theory... one called Dialectic approach, explains harmony as the result of resolution of contradictions. The result of the process of emergence from the play of musical forces as compared to.... the mechanical completion of a template developed from physical laws....

With Jazz... the dialectic approach generally works better.

Hey jtizzle... yea I've heard of the approach... but never really could hear it. Would love to hear some applications. I'll reread you post and give it a try... cool stuff. Not many places for use etc... But I'll work with it.

[jtizzle]

Actually there's way too many places for use. Superimposition. You can use this anywhere you have a V-I. Just as how you can imply Db7 over a G7, you can also imply F-6 over G7. It gives you access to a really new bunch of combination of alterations that you probably wouldn't think of if thinking G7.

Also a lot of tunes have this written out. All of you, i'll be seeing you are two examples.

[Vladan]

Jtizzle, is this a language thing, or I do not understad it at all?

I dont understand "imply fm6 over G7".
How can I imply something by actually doing it?
I'd always think, if I wanted to imply (suggest) something, I'm to do something else, or it would not be implying.

For example, I could understand "(by) applying fm6 you imply G7".
Actually, I can't escape from seeing fm6 is same as G11b9, which is the very same G7 with some more extensions.

What makes the difference?

[jtizzle]

Superimposing is to play something over something else. You probably know the common 3-9 arpeggios (EMaj7/C = Cmaj9). There are many other things you can imply over other chords to get different sounds. As you mentioned, F-6/G = G11b9. That's the whole point of superimposing. Simplifying the thought process by instead of thinking "I want to play a G11b9 sound and isolate the 5, 7, 11, and b9, you know that F-6 over G gives you those notes. So yeah, it is the same thing as G7 with more extensions, but a different way of creating the sounds and harmonies. For example, you can think F-6 to D major as a V - I resolution. Might sound weird, but F-6 functions as G7 and D major functions as the upper structure of CMaj7. A lot of guys use this process of superimposition to actually write tunes with that sound more interesting than Dmin7 - G7 - CMaj7.