The origin of the minor subdominants

[Vladan]

Superimposing yes, but you said "imply". Ok, superimposing I undersztand. I would never use those words as some kind of synonymes, but ok, maybe it's different in English, it's not my native.

[jtizzle]

Implying simply means you don't play the straight arpeggio. You imply the sound by playing around the notes that make up what you're implying.

[christianm77]

Who'd have thought it'd be so complicated eh? You flatten the 6th in a major scale (3rd of a IV chord) and suddenly everyone's falling over themselves to explain things in all sort of mega complicated ways (I'm looking at you Steve Coleman. :-P).

This can be interesting in much the same way as say science is, but you don't need to know why to play it. Schoenberg and Coleman are great musicians as well as theorists, but on the other hand there are plenty of great players who really don't care why.

(BTW intellectually, I've read Coleman and Schoenberg on this, and I'm not convinced. Schoenberg was interested in justifying his music retroctively, and Coleman is interested in finding new directions from the point of view of music theory. Neither direction appeals to me as a player.)

So - why?

I like to play IV minor (iim7b5, bVImaj7+5) mostly because it's what I hear and jazz musicians use. It also pops up a lot in 19th century music. I've always understood it as a simple borrow from the paralel minor, or a bit of chromatic voice leading. Scalewise I tend to move towards the melodic minor on IV, because that's what I hear cats playing on records and it sounds good to me (you could of course also break with tradition and do something else...)

This sound is very close friends with bVII7#11 and V7b9.

It is very common. That's all you need to know in a way.

I play IV minor (arpeggio or scale) on every cadence I can. the V in a ii V I, the #ivo7 in IV #ivo7 I. It always works. If you don't believe me, transcribe Bird, Prez, Miles and Charlie Christian.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

I play the #ivo7 in IV / #ivo7 / I

Hi Christianm 77,

In this progression,

If you mean:F#07

ie: Fmajor7/ F#07/Cmajor7, #IV 07 is not a subdomiant minor.
F#07 in that context can be analysed as V7b9/III, V7b9/bVII, V7b9/V, or V7b9/bII, not conducting to I.

If you mean otherwise F#min7b5,

Because the interval of a guitar tuned regularly E A D G B E: three perfectIVth ,one major 3th and a last perfect IVth,

#IVmin7b5=Imaj6=VImin6=bVI7b95+,same fingering !

,you will play in fact :IV/I6/I
cheers
HB

[christianm77]

Hi Christianm 77,

In this progression,

If you mean:F#07

ie: Fmajor7/ F#07/Cmajor7, #IV 07 is not a subdomiant minor.
F#07 in that context can be analysed as V7b9/III, V7b9/bVII, V7b9/III, or V7b9/bII, not conducting to I.

If you mean otherwise F#min7b5,

Because the interval of a guitar tuned regularly E A D G B E: three perfectIVth ,one major 3th and a last perfect IVth,

#IVmin7b5=Imaj6=VImin6=bVI7b95+,same fingering !

,you will play in fact :IV/I6/I
cheers
HB

No, the F#o7 is not a subdominant minor. It is however functioning tonally in the same way as an Fm would in this context, which is to chromatically voice lead back to I. Here I am not thinking of the minor plagal as a thing in it's own right but rather a chord whose function is to cadence back to I.

In this case, in voice leading terms, the F# in the F#o7 is acting as chromatic leading tone up to G, the 5th of the I chord, as opposed to the root. We also have the Eb/D# moving to E (the 3rd) of I in the same way. The root of I is in fact common to both chords, so it's a little bit of a more exotic way to get to the target chord (I) but pretty common since Mozart's day (every note of the chord could have a chromatic leading tone in Mozart's music.)

In the olden days of jazz (1920s/30s) this was often played with a specific bassline. It is also still in use as a 'blues ending.' Also sometimes referred to as 'the Horse' by musicians I have worked with:

C C7/E F F#o7 C/G (I-->IV-->I) usually going on to A7 D7/Dm G7

The other 'blues ending' has a descending bassline and uses the Fm. This is the minor plagal. Gypsy jazz players call it 'Christophe.)

C C7/Bb F/A Fm/Ab C/G (I-->IV-->I) usually going on to A7 D7/Dm G7

In writing the composer or arranger would select the progression that works best with the melody. Sometimes you can totally use either - All of Me for example.

It's common practice to play the Ab over the F#o7 (#IVo7) in this situation when improvising. Also the two versions of the changes get swapped for each other. Take bars 5-7 of a Bb blues or bars 5-6 of a Rhythm Tune

We can play:
Eb Eo7 Bb (G7 Cm F7)

Or

Eb Ebm Bb (G7 Cm F7)

(Some people just play Eb7 Bb - Bird was fond of this on Blues and Rhythm tunes)

An example: if you analyse the melody line of 'Wail' by Bud Powell he expresses both versions of the blues ending in the line at different points of the melody which strongly suggests he was thinking of them as interchangeable (Wail is a Rhythm Tune).

As you say, you can think of the F#o7 as an upper structure B7(b9) and use Em as a sub for C. This gives you what I think of as the late bebop sub for this chord progression. You can use the F#m7b5 (the ii of Em) as well for good measure:

F F#m7b5 B7 Em

If we add i the VI-ii-V-I afterwards, it gives us a progression crops up in Stablemates and Moments Notice, and a good way to reharmonise that very old school F F#o7 C/G thing for something more modern:

F F#m7b5 B7 Em A7 Dm G7 C

Without the F, that's a common progression in tunes like Green Dolphin Street and All God's Children, an extended chain of ii-V's.

Sorry for rambling on. I find this progressions interesting because no-one discusses them much (just ii-V-I's.) Hope that made some sort of sense to you!

[christianm77]

For obvious reasons I would tend to avoid using an F#/Gb when improvising over a Fm or G7 chord, but the notes Eb (b3 of the key), Ab (b6) are fair game for any cadence to I, or any voice leading you might set up from IV or ii, as are Db (b2) and Bb(b7).

[christianm77]

Another variation is F D/F# C/G. This is common in Mozart and Beethoven, and Dylan uses it in Don't Think Twice it's All Right IIRC. In general the minor plagal seems more popular in popular music at the moment.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

In the olden days of jazz (1920s/30s) this was often played with a specific bassline. It is also still in use as a 'blues ending.' Also sometimes referred to as 'the Horse' by musicians I have worked with:

C C7/E F F#o7 C/G (I-->IV-->I) usually going on to A7 D7/Dm G7

For me,the horse is a V7/V,D7b9/F#

The other 'blues ending' has a descending bassline and uses the Fm. This is the minor plagal. Gypsy jazz players call it 'Christophe.)

C C7/Bb F/A Fm/Ab C/G (I-->IV-->I) usually going on to A7 D7/Dm G7

In writing the composer or arranger would select the progression that works best with the melody. Sometimes you can totally use either - All of Me for example.

It's common practice to play the Ab over the F#o7 (#IVo7) in this situation when improvising.

Ab over F#07 is for me a transient Ab7 : Eb C Ab F# bVI7 or V7/bII
Also the two versions of the changes get swapped for each other. Take bars 5-7 of a Bb blues or bars 5-6 of a Rhythm Tune

We can play:
Eb Eo7 Bb (G7 Cm F7)

E07 is again IMO V7b9/V or C7b9

Or

Eb Ebm Bb (G7 Cm F7)

(Some people just play Eb7 Bb - Bird was fond of this on Blues and Rhythm tunes)
Eb7/Bb is the bII7 of A7,or V7/III-,the phrygian mode replaced by his Tonic ,Bb

cheers
HB

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

For obvious reasons I would tend to avoid using an F#/Gb when improvising over a Fm or G7 chord, but the notes Eb (b3 of the key), Ab (b6) are fair game for any cadence to I, or any voice leading you might set up from IV or ii, as are Db (b2) and Bb(b7).

right
HB

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Another variation is F D/F# C/G. This is common in Mozart and Beethoven, and Dylan uses it in Don't Think Twice it's All Right IIRC. In general the minor plagal seems more popular in popular music at the moment.

Could be see as Db7 :b9 b13 11,the spanish gypsy mode of Gb Harmonic minor scale or bII7/I

HB

[christianm77]

cheers
HB

Your comments didn't show.

In fact, C C7 F Ab7 C/G is another variation that shows up occasionally. Ab7 can be considered an Augmented 6th and can be voiced as a chord built on the combination of the two blues ending basslines:

C E F F# G
C Bb A Ab G

Ab against Gb gives us the Ab7

Neat, huh?

Anyway, everything you say is theoretically correct. I don't particularly feel the need to define things in quite that way, but if it helps you, great.

Most of the 'real world' jazz theory I come across and I find useful is concerned with quickly categorising familiar elements so that they can be practiced or easily recognised either by ear or in charts. Also, learning to what extent thing can be exchanged for other things, for example, chord substitutions.

So I come off a gig thinking - hmmm the progression #IVm7b5 IVm I - not on top of that. Needs work.

Over the week, I'll make sure to practice the arpeggios and the scales on those three chords ( I would sing them too to make sure the sound is fully internalised), transcribe some lines that work over it, and then practice some free improv on that progression.

I might also transcribe Django and notice that he uses that progression as a sub for II7 V7 I.

That about does it for me. I'm not sure anything more fundamental is awfully useful for yer standard everyday jazz guitar playing.

[christianm77]

For obvious reasons I would tend to avoid using an F#/Gb when improvising over a Fm or G7 chord, but the notes Eb (b3 of the key), Ab (b6) are fair game for any cadence to I, or any voice leading you might set up from IV or ii, as are Db (b2) and Bb(b7).

Actually, after writing this, I doodled around on the piano for a bit and decided that F# is absolutely fine on G7 provided it is strongly prepared in the Dm and resolved in the C. My ear accepts it. But perhaps I'm weird.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

C C7 F Ab7 C/G is another variation that shows up occasionally. Ab7 can be considered an Augmented 6th and can be voiced as a chord built on the combination of the two blues ending basslines:

C E F F# G
C Bb A Ab GAb against Gb gives us the Ab7

IMO,when you play Ab7,you play the 3 (C)and b7(F#) OK?

Take now the chord C A E F#

it may be a Am6: b3 T 5 6 or a Ab7 b95+: 3 b9 5+ b7

Thus,for me you play in this progression:C C7 F Ab7 C/G : T V7/IV IV VIm C/G

the progression #IVm7b5 IVm I - not on top of that. Needs work.

as #IVm7b5=I maj6=VIm6=bVi7 b9 5+

in C,you play indeed:

Am Fm C =VIm IVm Cmaj
or
F#m7b5 Fm Cmaj= bVm7b5 IVm Imaj
or
Ab7 b9 5+Fm Cmaj =V7/bII (or V7/V Ab7=D7) Fm Cmaj

not the top indeed

For obvious reasons I would tend to avoid using an F#/Gb when improvising over a Fm or G7 chord

You could hear a F# over a Fm if intended a Phrygian mode ,second degree of a Melodic minor scale or third degree of a major scale.

As for F# over a G7 chord,don't forget that many people play that with a pentatonic scale!
ie,on a C7 chord,they play "outside":

Dmaj pentat or Bmin pentat =C 9 13 #11 addmaj7
Gmaj pentat or Emin pentat =C 9 13 addmaj7
Emaj pentat or Db min pentat=Calt addmaj7
Amaj pentat or F#min pentat= C s-dim addmaj7
Bmaj pentat or Abmin pentat=C alt addmaj7
cheers
HB

[christianm77]

IMO,when you play Ab7,you play the 3 (C)and b7(F#) OK?

Take now the chord C A E F#

it may be a Am6: b3 T 5 6 or a Ab7 b95+: 3 b9 5+ b7

Thus,for me you play in this progression:C C7 F Ab7 C/G : T V7/IV IV VIm C/G

I don't generally hear Ab7 in this context as an altered chord, but yes no reason why not. In general I play bVI lydian dominant if I want a scale (bIII melodic minor).

as #IVm7b5=I maj6=VIm6=bVi7 b9 5+

in C,you play indeed:

Am Fm C =VIm IVm Cmaj
or
F#m7b5 Fm Cmaj= bVm7b5 IVm Imaj
or
Ab7 b9 5+Fm Cmaj =V7/bII (or V7/V Ab7=D7) Fm Cmaj

not the top indeed

Yes, that's what I practice scale wise. That wasn't the point of what I meant, I was just giving an example.

You could hear a F# over a Fm if intended a Phrygian mode ,second degree of a Melodic minor scale or third degree of a major scale.

I could hear it if I heard it. Let the academics sort the theory out afterwards.

As for F# over a G7 chord,don't forget that many people play that with a pentatonic scale!
ie,on a C7 chord,they play "outside":

Dmaj pentat or Bmin pentat =C 9 13 #11 addmaj7
Gmaj pentat or Emin pentat =C 9 13 addmaj7
Emaj pentat or Db min pentat=Calt addmaj7
Amaj pentat or F#min pentat= C s-dim addmaj7
Bmaj pentat or Abmin pentat=C alt addmaj7
cheers
HB

There are so many possibilities for pentatonics. I've only scratched the surface...

TBH stuff like this makes my head hurt. If you do enough of this type of mental gymnastics you can justify any note over any chord. So why bother justifying anything this way? Seems like a waste of brainpower better spent on other things.

Scales are nice things and can be used to make nice sounds in music but why do we spend time analysing everything with respect to chord/scale theory? Why not just get on with it?

It's significant for me that Django, Wes Montgomery and Grant Green, for example, would have no f**king idea what we are on about in this forum :-) So maybe, it's more important to play than to theorise. Find a few things you like the sound of, and practice them to death, that's my advice (to myself as much as anyone else). Then that'll be your style.

(That said if it makes you happy to think about scales, do it)

[EDIT: I did post this on a forum entitled, 'theory', so I suppose the point is to discuss theory....]

[christianm77]

Also, the literal meaning of the title of the OP is - 'what is the origin?' That could be understood as asking 'what are the first historical examples of the minor subdominant chord?' (I'd be interested to find out the answer, but not enough to read any academic musicology!)

What I have come to understand is that all music follows by precedent (even 12-tone music had its precedents) and tradition. In a sense, we play the minor subdominant because that's what the musicians we listen to play (that's my approach.)

On the other hand if we ask 'what is the origin?' we might imply that music theory has some relationship with the laws of nature. There is a link, I think, but the nature of this link is hard to get a handle on... In terms of my everyday music making, I couldn't care less, but I can understand why someone might be interested in this as an intellectual question.

Steve Coleman's teaching tries to look into that (I can't remember the name of the German theorist he was influenced by) by examining the overtone sequence and its inversion.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

it's more important to play than to theorise

I can also play

HB