Triad approach to mapping fretboard

[DocJay]

Hi all,

I am at the stage where I'm trying to find a good way to visualize the fretboard as I learn to play the changes.

I have seen loads of references to people using triads as a kind of fretboard roadmap.

I was wondering if anyone can point me to a good book or website on this topic.

Thanks!

[Shadow of the Sun]

The above video by Jody Fisher shows that you can find any major triad (arpeggiated) in the span of two and a half frets.

[TH]

If you can find a copy of The George Van Eps Method for Guitar by George Van Eps, obviously, get it. It is well laid out and has been a staple of triadic/diatonic chordal and melodic playing for more generations of guitarists than possibly any other single source. I've known more guitarists up to current contemporary players who've started with this little book. Concise, exhaustive and gives you great material right from page 1.
David

[DocJay]

If you can find a copy of The George Van Eps Method for Guitar by George Van Eps, obviously, get it. It is well laid out and has been a staple of triadic/diatonic chordal and melodic playing for more generations of guitarists than possibly any other single source. I've known more guitarists up to current contemporary players who've started with this little book. Concise, exhaustive and gives you great material right from page 1.
David

Thanks for the tip! I have read a lot of praise for his Harmonic Mechanisms books, but have stayed away because of how advanced they are.

The Method book looks more my speed, and sounds like what I am looking for! It looks to be out of print. I see one dealer selling a PDF copy for $10 online. Does anyone have any experience downloading from that company?

[DocJay]

Ok, I couldn't resist. I bought a copy for $10.

If nothing else this will get me practicing my reading. :-)

I have to say I was pretty confused by why the first major scale triad exercise used an F instead of the Amin. I ended up searching online for an answer and found a thread here that linked to a Ted Greene interview where GVE explained why. So glad I found that or I would have been totally confused right off the bat.

Based on the answer, I think am just going to play Amin when going through the exercises.

[scbeebe]

DocJay,

I think this might be what you are looking for.

Beebe.co.nr

I think there will be an android app available for this too.

scbb

[Dana]

For a more melodic approach I would suggest Expansions by Gary Campbell

[MarkRhodes]

[video=youtube;4zS_-gz37JA]The above video by Jody Fisher shows that you can find any major triad (arpeggiated) in the span of two and a half frets.

I like that exercise. I think I learned it from a Carol Kaye book. In any case, it's a good one to know.

[MarkRhodes]

For a more melodic approach I would suggest Expansions by Gary Campbell

I think you've mentioned that book before. I've never seen it---what's it like?

[DocJay]

The above video by Jody Fisher shows that you can find any major triad (arpeggiated) in the span of two and a half frets.

Thanks. That is a really cool exercise.

I took lessons with Chris Buono through Truefire for a little bit, and it reminds me of the triad exercises he uses in his Guitar Gym triad course. He wasn't having me arpeggiating them though, just running through inversions in fourths like that.

My only issue is that as an intermediate level player, I always find it difficult to envision how to apply these type of exercises.

[DocJay]

DocJay,

I think this might be what you are looking for.

scbb

Thanks! I will have a look.

[NSJ]

Here's how I have practiced triads.

You have to approach them systematically (FROM the nut TO the 12th fret, from the 1st string TO the 6th string, using 4 separate string sets--123, 234, 345, 456, not just up and down the neck, but, also very critically, across the neck. It is the second part--across the neck, that generates the root and 2 inversions (1st inversion, 2nd inversion) pretty much in place.

Thus, think of string set 234. Pick a key. e.g., C. Start from the nut, the lowest note diatonic you can find. Harmonize the key in triads with the top notes generating the key (CDEFGABC). You will find that going up the neck, you will be playing first inversion triads. (3-5-1, or to use the C triad, E-G-C). You will find that this is the shape. Accounting for the 2nd string and its impact, the root position triads will all have the same shape (135), as well as the 2nd inversion triads (513).

Go back to the string set 234, starting at the nut again. Have a look at at that C on the 2nd string again.. You've already went up the neck harmonizing the C scale with 1st inversion triads. Look at the at that note, the middle C on the piano, again. It can serve as the middle note in a triad (2nd inversion triad, 5-1-3, or G-C-E). That shape and form is found on string set 123. harmonize the C Scale on stringset 123 from the nut to the 12th fret using the 2nd inversion triads.

Have a look at that C again on the 2nd string. It forms the P5 in an F triad (1-3-5) in the root position, which is found on stringset 234). Thus, you can harmonize the C scale with root position triads on string set 234, from nut to the 12 fret. The triads would go up the neck as FM, GM, Am, Bdim, CM and Dm. (when you reach Dm, you've reached the 12 fret).

What's the first note on the 2nd string, closest to the nut that can be played as part of a 2nd inversion (5-1-3) on string set 234? Answer: Am. (E-A-C). Harmonize the C scale from the nut to the 12 fret on stringset 234 using the 2nd inversion triad: You will get, in this instance: Am-Bdim-CM-Dm-Em-FM-GM. At GM, you are at the 12th fret.

Then, think about how the same triad in any given position changes as we move across the strings. Think of that 1st inversion triad on stringset 234. On stringset 123, it's a 2nd inversion triad (5-1-3). From stringset 345, it forms a root position triad (1-3-5). From stringset 456, it forms a 2nd inversion triad (5-1-3).

[Dana]

I think you've mentioned that book before. I've never seen it---what's it like?

Hi Mark,

Basically it's all about playing diatonic triads and seventh chords in various ways. While I've found the
concept to be pretty straightforward, actually doing it with some level of skill is another thing altogether.

The book starts with a 'basic routine'. The author suggests using this routine to determine whether or not you have a basic command of a particular scale. The routine is written in C major, so it's up to the student to apply it to all the other keys and scales.

He also recommends varying the rhythms. In other words, instead of playing triads as triplets, play them as straight eighth notes, and vice-versa. Play seventh arpeggios as triplets and not just eighth notes.

It's also recommended that you loop a note or chord in order to hear the patterns over that chord.

There are some chapters on unusual scales like the Pentatonic b6, Tritone, and Augmented scales, but I've just been doing the patterns on Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Diminished, and Whole Tone scales. Each day I do 4 keys of each scale. I play them slow and say the notes to myself while playing them. I only do one or two patterns.

There's a chapter on triad pairs, adding lower neighbor tones, interval sets. It's pretty exhaustive considering the book is only about 50 pages.

For me the exercise I've gotten the most mileage out of is simply playing up one triad/seventh arpeggio and down the next, ascending and descending.

I remember watching Jaco Pastorius doing it on his Modern Electric Bass video. (Exercise 13. Around 18:45.) He does them vertically up and down the neck. I practice them in position as well as up and down the neck.

Also, I once took a lesson from Adam Rogers. When I asked him to show me what his practice routine was like, he immediately starting playing diatonic arpeggios ascending and descending.

After practicing it awhile I've started to notice that I'm able to 'find' the right notes when playing over changes, better than I had in the past. I seem to be able to make connections from chord to chord as well.

Hope that helps. YMMV.

[DocJay]

NSJ: Thanks for that. I just started the Van Eps book, and the first exercise is about harmonizing the major scale horizontally and across the four string sets. I have completed that exercise in C with one triad form. I'm going to go back and do it with the other inversions, and move my way through the other keys (as you suggested). I'm going to make this part of my regular practice routine, and of course move on to Van Eps other exercises. I think it's really cool that he makes this the very first lesson in the book. A promising sign. :-)


Dana: That book sounds great! I will definitely check it out.

[MarkRhodes]

Hi Mark,

Basically it's all about playing diatonic triads and seventh chords in various ways. While I've found the
concept to be pretty straightforward, actually doing it with some level of skill is another thing altogether.


For me the exercise I've gotten the most mileage out of is simply playing up one triad/seventh arpeggio and down the next, ascending and descending.

I remember watching Jaco Pastorius doing it on his Modern Electric Bass video. (Exercise 13. Around 18:45.) He does them vertically up and down the neck. I practice them in position as well as up and own the neck.

Thanks, Dana. That Exercise 13 is like one Carol Kaye has in one of her books. (One of her books that I have; it may be in several of them--most of her stuff is for bass players.) I found it easier to do in position than along the neck, so I've worked more on doing it along the neck! It's one of the exercises that made me realize my picking had to be fixed. In one sense, that exercise is simple. (There's no ambiguity about what note or chord comes next.) But I would hit glitches and I realized they resulted from inconsistent picking / poor technique.

Another related exercise is what Carol Kaye calls stacked thirds. Say we're playing G major. So you start with the G triad, then the B minor triad, then the D triad (-D, the V, is dominant in G, but we're just playing triads, so it's a major triad) then the F major, then A minor, and so on. It moves you around the neck pretty good. Then you work your way back. When you start doing it, you realize horn players do this a lot. So it's not just a good technical exercise, it's "the real deal" as Jaco says in that. (Thanks for posting it; I hadn't seen it.)

[Dana]

It's "the real deal" as Jaco says in that.

I love that! I don't wanna be 'jiving', or just 'wiggling my fingers'.

[DocJay]

Loved that Jaco P video. Good point about keeping exercises "musical".

Having grown up in Florida, I loved his story about his upright bass exploding because of the humidity. :-)

[bako]

What are the intervals involved in each triad?

Ex. Major Triad

1 to 3 --- Major 3rd --- Major 10th

1 to 5 --- Perfect 5th --- Perfect 5th (8ve)

1 to 8 --- Octave --- Octave (8ve)


3 to 5 --- Minor 3rd --- Minor 10th

3 to 8 --- Minor 6th --- Minor 13th

3 to 3 --- Octave --- Octave (8ve)


5 to 1 --- Perfect 4th --- 11th

5 to 3 --- Major 6th --- 13th

5 to 5 --- Octave --- Octave (8ve)

Get into the details, don't just memorize fingerings.

[dingusmingus]

In his 3-Note Voicings and Beyond, Randy Vincent has a nice way to practice triads.
Start with C major triads. Playing as a chord, play each close inversion of the chord, starting as low as possible (on string set 4-6) and going all the way up the neck (up to string set 1-3). Then come all the way back down, using the same inversions and string sets.

The trick is that you switch string sets every two chords. You are harmonizing the argpeggio, and hitting two out of three inversions on every string set.

After doing C major, do F, Bb, etc. After doing three sets of triads, you will have done all shapes of close major triad voicing on all string sets.

Eventually, also do minor, diminished, and augmented.

Then, do open inversions.

In Vincent's book, this is the second chapter before getting down to business of applying these things!

[Dana]

For a more melodic approach I would suggest Expansions by Gary Campbell

Here's a video of Mike Brecker talking about how he practices. He mentions practicing concepts he learned from Gary Campbell.

[MarkRhodes]

Loved that Jaco P video. Good point about keeping exercises "musical".

Having grown up in Florida, I loved his story about his upright bass exploding because of the humidity. :-)

Me too! The humidity hasn't blown up my guitar but it definitely changes things. Once upon a time I had no idea why all the sudden my action seemed slightly out of whack. Now I know....

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a video of Mike Brecker talking about how he practices. He mentions practicing concepts he learned from Gary Campbell.

Good clip. Thanks. You've convinced me! I've put "Expansions" on my Wish List and I'll eventually get it. God knows I could use the help....

[PMB]

In his 3-Note Voicings and Beyond, Randy Vincent has a nice way to practice triads.
Start with C major triads. Playing as a chord, play each close inversion of the chord, starting as low as possible (on string set 4-6) and going all the way up the neck (up to string set 1-3). Then come all the way back down, using the same inversions and string sets.

The trick is that you switch string sets every two chords. You are harmonizing the argpeggio, and hitting two out of three inversions on every string set.

After doing C major, do F, Bb, etc. After doing three sets of triads, you will have done all shapes of close major triad voicing on all string sets.

Eventually, also do minor, diminished, and augmented.

Then, do open inversions.

In Vincent's book, this is the second chapter before getting down to business of applying these things!

Great book! My approach when teaching triads is a little different to Randy's. I like to show how all the forms overlap and that means working in the opposite direction on the fretboard. Here's the major triad group (minor, diminished and augmented can be derived from the same forms):

[DocJay]

I've finished the first few exercises in the Van Eps book. I have to say, it is GREAT not having tab. By not having tab, it has forced me to really think about all the notes in the chords, find them on the guitar, and truly understand what I'm playing (and how the triads relate to one another). This alone is really helping me to learn the fretboard.

[dingusmingus]

Great book! My approach when teaching triads is a little different to Randy's. I like to show how all the forms overlap and that means working in the opposite direction on the fretboard. Here's the major triad group (minor, diminished and augmented can be derived from the same forms):

Cool PMB, I really like that approach. I'll try that out today!