What have you done with the diminished scale?

**bird_lives** · 11-14-2014, 07:03 PM

Yea you guys are basically you know regurgitating the ideas I really chased a few weeks ago.

Due to the nature of our guitar you know I think it's less work to have the diminished scale to where you know exactly where you are left brain expectation of sound very quickly after you have intellectualized and played it.

I guess resolving comes from altered notes. I can kind of do lydian dominant and the altered scale but they're so awkward on guitar.

And I"m sure he plays it regularly but the only time i"ve heard Scofield use jazz minor harmony is hit the road jack. So I say we all should be working on the diminished scale as guitarists because that's what this guy did, Parker, not sure about Wes (yea I can hear it sometimes but Wes he just I didn't have the technical abilities I have now I was 19 when I tried to transcribe him.

**Stuart Elliott** · 11-16-2014, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte

The first musician to theorize this scale is Olivier Messiaen, as his n°2 mode

He presents that clearly in his book "Technique de mon language musical" in 1944, when Trane is only 19 Y old, and Bird 24.
When he is war-prisonner in the Stalag of Gorlick, Messiaen composes in Jan 1941 "Stalag VIII-A" and "Quatuor pour la fin des temps" ;in those 2 pieces ,you can already hear the Half-Whole tone scale.
In 1941,Trane is 16 years old and Bird 21...
cheers
H B

HB,

I think you give too much credit-and too little-- to Messian. You seem to imply that he virtually invented the diminished scale and that jazz innovators like Parker and Coltrane picked it up from him, while ignoring Messian's real innovations which have only recently begun to be explored by a few jazz musicians. Moreover, even if Messian was first, which I don't think he was, that doesn't mean that there was a line of influence, unlike Slonimsky's work which had a definite influence. And, it doesn't indicate that Messian envisaged using the diminished scale in the manner that jazz musicians use it.

My understanding is that the DS was used extensively by Lizst (1826) and Rimsky-Korsakov, Glinka, Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravel and Debussy around the turn of the 20th century. According to wikipedia, a harmony treatise in 1797 presented the diminished scale. Rimsky-Korsakov wrote about it in his musical memoirs as a scale. The Italian composer Vitto Frazi used the scale extensively and wrote a work (Scale alternate, "alternating scales) on the scale in 1930.

The diminished scale was, I think, widely used in jazz long before Messian did his theorizing. George Van Eps, for example, in his 1939 Guitar Method presents several pages of exercises for diminished chords and scales and writes quite matter of factly about it, indicating that the scale was already in wide use in jazz.

What I think Messian did was to generalize from the two already existing and widely used modes of limited transposition, namely, the whole tone and diminished scales, to discover the five additional modes of limited transposition. Now whether those modes will prove productive for jazz improvisation is another question. They certainly have sparked a lot of academic interest, probably more in the non-jazz field.

**DMK** · 11-16-2014, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott

HB,

I think you give too much credit-and too little-- to Messian. You seem to imply that he virtually invented the diminished scale and that jazz innovators like Parker and Coltrane picked it up from him, while ignoring Messian's real innovations which have only recently begun to be explored by a few jazz musicians. Moreover, even if Messian was first, which I don't think he was, that doesn't mean that there was a line of influence, unlike Slonimsky's work which had a definite influence. And, it doesn't indicate that Messian envisaged using the diminished scale in the manner that jazz musicians use it.

My understanding is that the DS was used extensively by Lizst (1826) and Rimsky-Korsakov, Glinka, Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravel and Debussy around the turn of the 20th century. According to wikipedia, a harmony treatise in 1797 presented the diminished scale. Rimsky-Korsakov wrote about it in his musical memoirs as a scale. The Italian composer Vitto Frazi used the scale extensively and wrote a work (Scale alternate, "alternating scales) on the scale in 1930.

The diminished scale was, I think, widely used in jazz long before Messian did his theorizing. George Van Eps, for example, in his 1939 Guitar Method presents several pages of exercises for diminished chords and scales and writes quite matter of factly about it, indicating that the scale was already in wide use in jazz.

What I think Messian did was to generalize from the two already existing and widely used modes of limited transposition, namely, the whole tone and diminished scales, to discover the five additional modes of limited transposition. Now whether those modes will prove productive for jazz improvisation is another question. They certainly have sparked a lot of academic interest, probably more in the non-jazz field.

I concur. I have no idea who first "used" this scale, but Stravinsky certainly had the sound in Petrushka (written before the Rite Of Spring, early 1900's) in those passage where he combined C and F# triads.
At this point, the names i can think of for these scales are: octontic, symetric diminished, 1/2/w scale...Georgre Russell calls it the "auxilary diminished blues scale", presumably because in relationship to a dominant chord it gives you the blue notes #9 and #11...the "be bop scale"...I don't know if I've heard double diminshed until today...
A lot of great properties to this scale (and NO ONE seems to mention it's one mode, the whole step half step scale), and myself: I use it all the time, for everything. At this point, probably too much....
As a "jazz" composer, I used it extensively. For melodies, for vamps...for tonic sounds, for cadential sounds, in layered counterpoint, in dense chord structures...you name it....my single biggest inspiration (though I already knew the scale and used it a lot) was from a Messiean piece: from the Canyon to the stars....an orchestral piece, but has a great solo french horn passage, in which the horn player plays an arpeggio of the following chord, from the bottom up (I don't remember what pitch it actually starts on): C, G, Db, Gb...I fell in love with that chord and it's been part of my life ever since.... Here's two pieces that I used sounds from that scale/mode extensively:

(and no, that's not me on the guitar solos, it's Norm Zocher, I'm conducting--I rarely play guitar in my own group)

**DMK** · 11-16-2014, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by bird_lives

Yea you guys are basically you know regurgitating the ideas I really chased a few weeks ago.

Due to the nature of our guitar you know I think it's less work to have the diminished scale to where you know exactly where you are left brain expectation of sound very quickly after you have intellectualized and played it.

I guess resolving comes from altered notes. I can kind of do lydian dominant and the altered scale but they're so awkward on guitar.

And I"m sure he plays it regularly but the only time i"ve heard Scofield use jazz minor harmony is hit the road jack. So I say we all should be working on the diminished scale as guitarists because that's what this guy did, Parker, not sure about Wes (yea I can hear it sometimes but Wes he just I didn't have the technical abilities I have now I was 19 when I tried to transcribe him.

I must disagree. I don't find these scales "awkward" on the guitar, once I'd figured out the fingerings (and I know a bunch)...

**DMK** · 11-16-2014, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by wolflen

symmetric harmony is quite a study..the diminished scale can open many doors to finding innovative lines..

the obvious is that the chords produced from the diminished arpeggio are four 7b9 chords..given that the lines may now tempt the use of melodic minor scale runs also..

but the dim scale also hides the tritone scale..in plain sight-four of them! (well ..two actually)

D dim scale: D E F G Ab Bb B Db .. extract the tritone scales from the scale

G tritone.......G Ab B Db D F -- 1 b2 3 b5 5 b7 .. (G7b5 & Db7b5)
Bb tritone......Bb B D E F Ab (Bb7b5 & E7b5)
Db tritone......Db D F G Ab B again..(Db7b5 & G7b5)
E tritone.......E F G# Bb B D again (E7b5 & Bb7b5)

and the four 7b9 chords (no root) from the scale: G7b9 Bb7b9 Db7b9 E7b9

now you have quite a few ways to explore the dim scale..and not have to sound predictable with the minor 3rd interval between each note..there are other ways to use the scale and create some very nice lines..

This leaves out a lot of great qualities....using the whole 8 note scale there are (in 1/2 W) "equal" dominant chords on G, Bb,Db and E: each which have as possibe extensions, b9, #9 (b9 doesn't always make a great tonic sound but #9 does) #11 and 13....is you use the whole 1/2 version, on the degress a minor third you get a diminshed 7th chord with another a whole step above it...or giving you the possibilites of diminished 7th chord with 9, 11, b13 and major 7 as extensions)...on EVERY degre of either version of the scale you can build a diminshed chord...
back to the 1/2 whole scale...on, G, Bb, Db, and E, not only can you creat a dominant, you can create: a diminsihed 7th chord, a minor 7th, or a minor 7b5 ....a darn fun scale of limited transpostion.

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 11-17-2014, 10:03 AM

HB,

I think you give too much credit-and too little-- to Messian. You seem to imply that he virtually invented the diminished scale and that jazz innovators like Parker and Coltrane picked it up from him, while ignoring Messian's real innovations which have only recently begun to be explored by a few jazz musicians. Moreover, even if Messian was first, which I don't think he was, that doesn't mean that there was a line of influence, unlike Slonimsky's work which had a definite influence. And, it doesn't indicate that Messian envisaged using the diminished scale in the manner that jazz musicians use it.

My understanding is that the DS was used extensively by Lizst (1826) and Rimsky-Korsakov, Glinka, Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravel and Debussy around the turn of the 20th century. According to wikipedia, a harmony treatise in 1797 presented the diminished scale. Rimsky-Korsakov wrote about it in his musical memoirs as a scale. The Italian composer Vitto Frazi used the scale extensively and wrote a work (Scale alternate, "alternating scales) on the scale in 1930.

The diminished scale was, I think, widely used in jazz long before Messian did his theorizing. George Van Eps, for example, in his 1939 Guitar Method presents several pages of exercises for diminished chords and scales and writes quite matter of factly about it, indicating that the scale was already in wide use in jazz.

What I think Messian did was to generalize from the two already existing and widely used modes of limited transposition, namely, the whole tone and diminished scales, to discover the five additional modes of limited transposition. Now whether those modes will prove productive for jazz improvisation is another question. They certainly have sparked a lot of academic interest, probably more in the non-jazz field.

Hi Stuart Eliott

I recognize I was going too far,and I apologize.
I was made a little nervous by our friend ColinO;I had the impression that he laughed at Olivier Massiaen,but he was only kidding.

I have also the Van Eps book,and I recommend the excellent blog of Rob Mc Killop,who's illustrated magistrally this stuff :
George Van Eps Method For Guitar | Rob MacKillop ~ Musician

**Hyppolyte Bergamotte** · 11-17-2014, 10:19 AM

great playing DMK !

I was really impressed by the female violonist in the second piece, just before the singer began to sing!

Je vous tire mon chapeau !

cheers
HB