The third mode of limited transposition of messiaen in jazz

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

This 9 tone scale, who is containing a Whole Tone scale and an Augmented scale is composed of 3 successive tetrachords :211211211.

T 9 #9 3 #11 5 #5 b7 7
It will be transposable four times
Each of the 4 transpositions contains 3 pivot notes, forming between them an augmented fifth, separated by a major third .
On the guitar,the fingering of those transposition is is easy.

First Transposition or ” 3/1 T” C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B C

The 3 pivot notes are :C Ab E, with the C+ Ab+ E+ relationship.
It does imply that, on the guitar, you can begin to play , from the 6 string to the 1^st string, 3/1 T beginning on Ab (4^th fret), or C (8^th fret) or E (12^th fret)
Triads and chords:
The completed triads and chords permitted by the 3/1T are with the 3 pivot notes: C Ab E
On those 3 notes ,you have :

-triads: maj augm min dim
Chords: maj7 maj7 #5 min7 minMaj m7b5 7 7b5 7#5

On the others note, you have only certain triads and chords; you can easy calculate them. Note however the existence of a Ebm,Gm and Bm.More of that later in the post.

Second transposition or ” 3/2T” B C# D Eb F Gb G A Bb

Pivot notes: B Eb G, with the B+ Eb+ G+ relationship

On the guitar , you can play 3/2T ,same fingerings that 3/1T,but on the 7^th,3th or 11^th fret of the sixth string E (B or Eb or G)
The complete permitted triads and chords are the same as for 3/1T,but this time beginning on the notes B Eb and G
On the others notes of 3/2T , you will have only certain triads and chords .Note the existence of a Dm F#m and Bbm

Third Transposition, or ” 3/3 T” Bb C Db D E F F# G# A

Pivot notes :Bb D F#,with the Bb+ D+ F#+ relationship.

On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the 2^nd 6^th or 10^th fret of the 6^th string,E (F# or Bb or D)
The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/3T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T,but beginning on the notes Bb D and F#
On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of a C#m Fm and Am

Fourth Transposition, or “3/4 T “ A B C C# D# E F G G#

Pivot notes : A C# F ,with the A+ C#+ F+ relationship
On the guitar, you can play 3/3T the same fingerings that 3/1T, but on the First fret, 5^th or 9th fret (F,A,C#) of the 6^th string E.
The complete permitted triads and chords of 3/4T are the same as for 3/1T and 3/2T, and 3/3T but beginning on the notes A,C# and F
On the others notes of 3/3T, only certain triads and chords are possible. Note the existence of Cm Em and G#m


USING THE SCALE IN JAZZ IMPROVISATION

1-Writing a tune with the notes and chords of one of the four transposition

2-Playing the 9 notes scale on a triad or a chord inside the choosed transposition.
The notes of the scale , wich are foreign to the choosen chord or triad will sound “out”

Ex: play the 9 notes of 3/1T on Cmaj7, Cmaj7#5,Cm7,CminMaj,Cm7b5,C7b5,C7#5

3-Jens Larsen suggestion:

“I often use this scale over a chord that has an augmented sound in the upper structure,and in this case,I ignore that the Tonic is not in the scale”

The 4th Messiaen mode - Jens Larsen
(Curiously,he name in his blog the 3^th Messiaen mode the 4^th (?) ,but no matter)

On 3/1T :

The 3 notes Db F or A are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: Db minMaj, FmMaj,AmMaj.Play the 9 notes of 3/1T on those chords.
Play the 3/1T on : -Ebm-Ab7 DbmMaj :you got a IIm-V7-IminMaj,thanks to Ebm.As Gm Bm are Also in this Transposition,you can form :Gm-C7-FmMaj and Bm-E7-AmMaj

On 3/2T

The 3 notes C Eb Ab are not in the transposition. But, assuming that the Tonic is an assumed Root,(AR): you will obtain: C minMaj, EmMaj,AbmMaj. Play the 9 notes of 3/2T on those chords.
Play the 3/2T on Dm-G7- CmMaj. F#m-B7-EmMaj. Bbm-Eb7-AbmMaj and you got three IIm-V7-IminMaj ,thanks to those chords in the Transposition

On 3/3T

C#m-F#7-BmMaj, Fm-BB7-EbmMaj and Am-D7-GmMaj

On 3/4 T
Cm-F7-BbmMaj, Em-A7-DmMaj, G#m-C#7-F#mMaj

4. Finally ,it is possible,as mentionned ,to form II V I suites .You could choose to play on the IIm,the V7 or even the ImMaj or Imaj7 a Messiaen III mode of limited transposition,if you choose the chords in his appropriate transposition.

Good luck with those Messiaen III transpositions

HB

[JensL]

Interesting! Thanks for quoting my blog!

I called it the 4th mode because of this:
Modes of limited transposition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When my teacher talked about it a long time ago he didn't name it, so I looked it up.

Jens

[robertm2000]

Olivier Messiaen?! I'd like to see Lady Gaga do something with that! Or even maybe to find out if she knows who he is! (Sarcastic reference to another thread where they are arguing about how she's related to jazz, through Tony Bennett....)

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Thanks Jens!

It's well his 3th mode

(http://www.geocities.ws/jeharris56/chapter05.pdf)

He employed mode3 more frequently than any of his others modes.

He called his modes with colors.

third mode,transposition1 ( 3/1T ) :as orange,gold and milky white
third mode,transposition2 ( 3/2T): as gray,mauve,a bit of gold
third mode,transposition3 ( 3/3T): as blue and green
third mode,transposition4 ( 3/4T ):Orange,red,a bit of blue

cheers
HB

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

It should be quite interesting ...



but..I like Tony Bennet, and as he's kissing the lady, I like also the lady (with a tramp)
cheers
HB

[pkirk]

speaking of Messiaen, I heard this group recently
LondonJazz: REVIEW: Cédric Hanriot and Jason Palmer?s ?City of Poets? feat. Donny McCaslin at Pizza Express Jazz Club
They played in the UK after playing here. I'd check them out if they come to your area. Insane!

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

try those transpositions on the guitar: The fingering of the transpositions are easy !

[gsegal]

I did a record based on some Messiaen modes. There are two four part suites on the record and I use these sounds a lot. Here's a link if anyone is interested.
Mental Images by Gene Segal
https://itun.es/us/Kfew0

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

dear master,

It should be very interesting if you could tell us in a few words your use of the Massiaen modes,particulary as concern modes III to VII

cheers
HB

[gsegal]

Well I used the 3rd mode the same as I would use any symmetric a scale, it has chords that can be moved up or down a major 3rd. For instance the scale has both minor and maj chords starting on C and then E, Ab and B. This can be a really interesting composition devise and works the same way for improvisation.

[gsegal]

Sorry not B, just C,Ab and E

[Rob MacKillop]

Gene, I like that recording you liked to. Beautiful playing by the whole band.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Does it mean that you do use only the IIImode 1th transposition?_____C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B

And that you don't use the 3 others III mode transpositions ?

-III 2 ___ B C# D Eb F Gb G A Bb
-III 3____Bb C Db D E F F# G# A
-III 4____A B C C# D# E F G G#

cheers
HB

[gsegal]

Gene, I like that recording you liked to. Beautiful playing by the whole band.

Thanks Rob!

[gsegal]

Does it mean that you do use only the IIImode 1th transposition?_____C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B

And that you don't use the 3 others III mode transpositions ?

-III 2 ___ B C# D Eb F Gb G A Bb
-III 3____Bb C Db D E F F# G# A
-III 4____A B C C# D# E F G G#

cheers
HB

I use it the same way I use diminished. It has only 3 inversions instead of 4 but it's similar. There are also 3 transposition like the diminished too. There are also 3 inversions for every scale. Weather you start on C,E or G# with the W/H/W/W formula the scale contains the same notes, also similar to the diminished.
I use the different transpositions but I consider each one a different key.

[edh]

This is over my head. I need to re-read this thread a few time to see if I can make sense of it.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Ok edh,

1)Take the Matt Warnock fingering of the III mode beginning on the Sixth string E

2)Take the II V I progression Cm F7 Bbmaj7 or,with the tritone of F7, Cm B7 Bbmaj7

3) on Cm F7 Bbmaj7:

-play first a Cmin mode or chord you like

-then ,on F7, play the Matt Warnock fingering on the Ist fret (beginning with the note F on the sixth string -or first string), or on the fifth fret (beginning with the note A on the sixth string), or on the IX fret,beginning with the note C# on the sixth string.that because the IIIrd Mode is a symmetrical scale.ok ?

-Finally play the Imaj7: Bbmaj7

4) on Cm B7 Bbmaj7
With the tritone, B7 play the fingering on the VII fret (B),or the Xi fret (Eb) or the III fret (G)

That's for a use of the IIIrd Messiaen mode as a dominant scale,as suggested by Matt Warnock.

But read my first post,you could use the mode on OTHERS chords

cheers
HB

[jazz4ever]

I've been learning 4th mode for a while. its:
1 b2 2 4 #4 5 b6 7

it divides at the tritone...it has some features similar to mode 2...but you have 4ths

any melodic idea can be repeated at the tritone,

e.g.

you have dim(maj7) on scale degree 2, and also scale degree b6

the thing with that...you also have plain old m7b5 on those degrees too (due to chromatic nature)

similarly, maj7 and/or dom7 on scale degrees b2 and 5


not only maj7 but maj7b9 on those degrees, and dom7b9

the dom7b9 at the tritone is similar to mode 2 ...except on mode 2 the dom7b9 is on scale degree 1 and #4



haven't worked with mode 3 though.


you might want to check bobby stern's recent posts on the minor tritone scale. very relavent to messiaen modes.


check Nelson Veras' stuff on Messiaen modes as through this FB post:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/maart.../220275918824/

The audio files on that FB link contain all of the youtube clinic footage (except for the tunes they played)

and this here page:
Messiaen


finally, you might be interested in Yamaguchi's geometric patterns book. He goes into Messiaen modes a bit.

you'll find one of coltrane's patterns in both mode 2 and mode 4.
namely the pattern that goes : whole tone, major third, whole tone, major third, etc.

In mode 2 this pattern is doubled at minor third.
In mode 4 this pattern is doubled at the 4th


O'Gallagher touches on Messiaen modes a bit in is 12 tone improv book
in that book he is dealing with trichords, but some of the trichords inevitably line up with Messiaen modes.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hello,jazz4ever!

I found the IV th Messiaen Mode a few months ago, as I systematically explore the Tetrachords combinations (cfr my post on scales and modes obtained with the help of the tetrachords)

This octotonic scale is an arrangment of two identical tetrachords with a semi-tone link : 113-1-113

Here are the six possible permutations:

T4/1: C Db D F F# G Ab B
T4/2: Db D Eb F# G Ab A C
T4/3: D Eb E G Ab A Bb Db
T4/4: Eb E F Ab A Bb B D
T4/5: E F F# A Bb B C Eb
T4/6: F F# G Bb B C Db E

-The Tonic and the augmented fourth,separated by a tritonic interval (ie in T4/1: C and F#),generate on the Tonic 3 common chords:a 2sus triad(T25), a 4sus triad(T45)and a 2,4sus tetrachord (T245),and on the flat sixth of the Tonic a m7b5,a dim a dim7 and a dim(maj7)

-The flat second and the fifth,again separated by a tritonic interval (ie in T4/1: Db and G),generate the 5 common chords:a maj triad,a maj7 tetrachord, a dominant7 triad, a 7 b9 and a 7b5 dominant tetrachord.

-The major second (ie in T4/1: D), generate 3 chords :a dim triad,a dim7 tetrachord (07) and min7b5 tetrachord +a fourth chord:dim(maj7) tetrachord, (thanks to jazz4 ever )

-the fourth and seven, again separated by a tritonic interval(ie in T4/1 :F and B),generate the 4 common chords:a min triad,a dim triad ,a min6 tetrachord and dim7 tetrachord.

-the seventh degree(#5) doesn't generate any chords.

You can also consider on the flat second and fifth a maj7b9 tetrachord ,that you could use on the T4 Messiaen mode and on the Franz Liszt mode,first mode of the Double Harmonis major scale.

Let's take ,ie,the T4/1:you got

Csus,Csus4,Csus2,4;Abmin7b5,Abdim,Abdim7,Abdim(maj 7)
Db,Dbmaj7,Dbmajb9,Db7,Db7b9,Db7b5
D°,Ddim7,Dmin7b5,Ddim(maj7)
Fmin,F°,Fdim7;Dmin7b5,D°,Ddim7,Ddim(maj7)
G,Gmaj7,G7,G7b9,G7b5
Bmin,B°,Bdim7


I use this IV mode usually to end a phrase on the tonic
ie:
Am-Ab7 whole tone(the first Messiaen mode) -Gmaj7b2,with the T4/1on the Tonic,G

Generally speaking,I prefer the IIIrd mode, a subjective question
cheers
H.B

[jazz4ever]

Hello,jazz4ever!

I found the IV th Messiaen Mode a few months ago, as I systematically explore the Tetrachords combinations (cfr my post on scales and modes obtained with the help of the tetrachords)

nice stuff...thanks. did you notice the dim(maj7) ?
also you have things like Db/D (mode 4 on C)

If you're into systematic, then you might like this guy's approach to it. He calls it "binary symmetry".
His project is called "mints" : modes of internal symmetry.
http://github.com/shimpe/mints/tree/master/out

(check his "document.pdf" for detail)

Generally speaking,the Ivth mode is less rich in possibilities for us than the IIIth mode

not so sure about that...but like I said I haven't studied mode 3. Mode 4 got lots!

Messiaen said he didn't use it much, but I think he mentioned using mode 5 more (which is a subset of mode 4).

Check the Veras clinic for more on mode 4!

Here's some more geometric shapes:
Pitch Circles, by Jody Nagel

the one I was mentioning is called [0 2 6 8] on that page!

[jazz4ever]

Check the Veras clinic for more on mode 4!

also...lots of other good stuff there.

e.g. gives a good demonstration on 5-tuplets. (how to practice and use)

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

interesting stuff,jazz4ever !

It is certain that Messiaen used the most in his masses on the organ ,his IIIrd mode

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

jazz4ever
nice stuff...thanks. did you notice the dim(maj7) lso you have things like Db/D?

no,I didn't notice !
But,thanks to you,I found it : it's on the third degree of T/4
T4/1on D: D F Ab Db,that you call Db/D
T4/2on Eb: Eb F# A D
etc..

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

thanks for all your references,jazz4ever!

I ordered the Yamagushi's book !And thanks for the algorithms of van Munster and Hardaker

cheers
HB

[jazz4ever]

thanks for all your references,jazz4ever!

I ordered the Yamagushi's book !And thanks for the algorithms of van Munster and Hardaker

cheers
HB

cool! Graphically, its a lot like that Jody Nigel and Hardaker link I posted....except with Yamaguchi's own organization around it.

He has authored quite a few books.