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Time and feel is honestly a much more aural thing than harmony, where there is a completely accurate written system. I've been studying rhythm through Steve Coleman and the m-base methodology, and a lot of it is very relative to the pulse being felt. For example, if you write a long line of unbeamed 8th notes in an unmetered staff, what is it? It could be a whole bunch of things, depending on what pulse is felt. 90% of people will read it as a duple thing (1 + 2 + 3 +...), but you can feel it in different groupings, such as a triplet grouping (1 la le 2 la le), or other larger groupings (quintuplets, septuplets, etc).
A lot of rhythmic terms are also very vague. 3 over 4 can mean about 5 different things, for example.
A lot of workarounds are coming out, such as the aforementioned Ari Hoenig lessons on mymusicmasterclass. I also recommend anyone who is serious about studying not only rhythm, but music, to join the mbase website (paid subscription for 15 bucks a month, plus premium ~2 hour material on many topics for about $40 per topic). They have some really intense rhythmic stuff in there.
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12-08-2014 10:14 PM
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It's easier to explain scales than feel .
I struggled with it in my book "How to Make Your Guitar work"HTMYGT pg3 of 196.pdf
THis is an excerpt from the opening chapter.
You can check out more about the book here:
» book How to make your gtr talk Nils
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OK there have been some fairly advanced "concept" materials suggested here
Maybe what you may be after is something more down to earth.....
Enter Bill Leavitt.....yep he covered the meat and potatoes of rhythm in his less
well known but great book Melodic Rhythms For Guitar.
He uses the Berklee approach that a lot of the school's early pedagogy was/is based on.
Permutation and combination.
Melodic Rhythms is a systematic, and fun....yeah remember fun...ha ha..book
consists of 42 melodies of Leavitt's and works its way through all possibilties
of 1/8th note rhythms in 4/4 time starting with 7 attacks per measure working his
way down to one attack per measure.
He then does the same with 3/4 time.
So....if you remember that you can divide a 4/4 bar into 2 X 2 beat cells you learn to play,
...and read... syncopated rhythms...that you just get in your ear by playing them over and over.
Chord symbols given for all the melodies are written so that it is pretty clear to anyone who knows
their drop 2's and 3's what he intends you to play.
Would be great for using a loop pedal, or playing with a friend or teacher.....or friendly teacher
I used this small volume to get my reading chops up to the point that I was getting calls for symphony
gigs when they were doing pops type shows and backing touring singers jingles etc etc....
Highly recommend you check it out : http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...ripbooks%2C537
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Greg Fishman has a lot Jazz books on phrasing and licks for sax, but two of his books he has guitar versions. They come with play alongs with Greg playing the lines so you can get feel in your ear, then work on it with the rhythm track. Here's one of the guitar books.
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Guitar-Et...8105425&sr=1-5
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So many great suggestions in this thread! I've also seen Mike's Master classes has a rhythm class from Tom Lippencott. I haven't checked it out, but the teaser is intriguing.
I've been doing a thing Victor Wooten talks about, making the click something other than the downbeat. Even the upbeat in a duple swing is hard for me, though it's improving
Rhythm Workshop | Lesson by Tom Lippincott | Mike's Master Classes
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Those Victor Wooten exercises are awesome. I took lessons from Chris Buono through TrueFire a while back, and he had a Victor Wooten-like exercise where he would have you play a cycle of 16th note scratches (muting the strings, like a funk groove) and each time around you had to accent a different 16th note. Very tough, especially when you build up a bit of speed! I found a programmable drum machine (or app) was very handy for these kind of exercises.
Originally Posted by dingusmingus
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Cool! I've seen a little bit of Buono's stuff on the web and like him a lot. I finally got the time guru app ($3) and like it--very flexible. Originally Posted by DocJay
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One of the things that got me thinking about rhythm and groove again was hearing Carol Kaye mention the influence of Latin/Afro-Cuban rhythms on the licks and grooves that she was coming up with when she was doing all those studio sessions in the 1960s (see the excellent one-hour interview with her on YouTube if you haven't!).
Anyway, today on her Facebook page Carol posted about Xavier Cugat's influence and mentioned the importance of montuno patterns.
Doing a quick Google search I came across an excellent intro to montuno patterns and Latin grooves for guitar. For anyone that's interested I recommend checking this out.
http://www.guitarkitchen.com/guitar-.../salsa-guitar/
I'm not affiliated in anyway, and it's all free. I just wanted share a cool find!
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Carol Kaye loves what she calls the montuno lick. I think it's in every book of hers that I have! (Not as many books for guitar as for bass....) I didn't know what the word meant when I first heard her use it, but I was familiar with the sound. I enjoy Carol's Facebook postings---lot of knowledge / experience there. Originally Posted by DocJay
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Mark (and everyone else), Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
You might enjoy this:
http://radioopensource.org/cuba-in-o...-ned-sublette/
I highly recommend giving it a listen. Fascinating history of Afro-Cuban music and it's influence on pop and jazz. Carol's good friend Earl Palmer is mentioned in here as well.
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Check out Hal Galper's book "Forward Motion", as well as his YouTube masterclass videos.
Also, Mike Longo (Dizzy's pianist) has a series of DVD's about jazz rhythm, based on Dizzy's teachings. He also has some YouTube clips.
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Hi Doc Jay, just got the Rhythm Sight Reading Trainer app. Love the way it gives feedback about being ahead behind. Thanks.
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Sweet! I love that thing. Great for learning different key signatures, AND I think the random mode is cool for coming up with different rhythms for your own licks. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
I have no affiliation with the developer, but I highly recommend his other two guitar apps as well. Working with the interval trainer really did wonders for me beyond what I expected. Not only am I able to hear intervals better, but getting the intervals position on the fretboard engrained in my head opened up a whole new world for me (and sent me down a music theory rabbit hole).
I haven't spent as much time with the his app for learning to read/learning the fretboard, but I plan to jump into it a bit more (particularly because a lot of the material I'm working with these days does not have tab, and I get a little lost above and below the staff). My recent journey down the interval/music theory rabbit hole makes me believe that tab has been holding me back for years.
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DocJay, do you find some quirks with the rhythm app? Do you use it with your guitar?
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Larry, Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
Are you using the one by Rolfs Apps? I haven't had any problems with it in the past, but now that apps are automatically updated, I don't know if there has been a new version since I last used it.
I don't know what you mean by use it with my guitar. The only way I have used it is tapping the tempos. I hope you are able to solve your problem! (maybe try emailing the developer). :-/
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Yes I've been trying it with my guitar. It's accurate 90% of the time, then shows notes played when I didn't play, and doesn't pick up some notes I do play. Works well with tapping the phone and clapping.
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Because it sells books and instructional materials, most of which are quite useless. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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Larry I didn't even know you could do that. Pretty cool. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
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Yea it's pretty easy to see why there aren't many books... most don't understand rhythm, and the few who do can't quite explain it... let alone put it in a book format.
The other side... most musicians start with melodic and harmonic BS... which provides stuff to play quickly.
Play drums or some type of percussion... for a while, get your rhythmic self together. Learn and understand subdivisions and accents... then where on and off the beat they can be played and organized. If you can't perform on a single drum etc... your sure not going to be able to cover on a guitar.
Got to love Carol... still. And yes play with some cuban percussionist. (after you get your rhythmic self together)
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Hi Reg, you reminded me about a percussion class I let go of that I miss now. And DocJay Rolf is very responsive to emails and gave me some good tips to use the app with a guitar.
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That's great news! If you have time, I would love to hear the tips! I'd like to try that myself. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
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Hey Larry... yea percussion classes... when I was a kid in 70's I studies with Alan Dawson in Boston. Long story short, yea the ritual etc... but I also learned to hear how rhythms lock together, recognize the different sounds of how different accents and where placed create different sounds... understand why they had different sounds. Basically understand why grooves and feels lock.
Most can hear three against two feels and how you can adjust the attacks to create different feels for that rhythmic pattern.
Basically all rhythmic patterns and accent patterns can also be adjusted... to create different feels that can lock.
But... yea you need to be able to play straight in time 1st.
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+1 Originally Posted by Reg
Nice thing switching focus a few times between bass and guitar taking lessons from one to the other. One thing you tend to find is a lot of bass player play drums or at least dabble in them. Going to play a rhythm section instrument need to understand and know a bit about all the instruments of the rhythm section so you can think like an arranger and find your part. One of the cool classes at music school we did transcribed just the rhythms of all the rhythm section instruments on tunes. Cool seeing how all the beats and sub-divisions are being covered by one instrument or another.
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I'm still trying to learn how to play on the beat. Via the miracle of Logic Pro I've really been able to see that I'm everywhere except on the beat. It would be one thing if I meant to be ahead or behind the beat, but I'd just like to be dead on the beat accurately. This is my Holy Grail.
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Watched about half of the interview so far and had trouble stopping. (I need to do some other stuff.) I thought it was great and she's really interesting.
I guess I don't know where you're coming from with the last question? Of course I don't really know anything else about her. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Thanks for posting the video.
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