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I had classical music education in Italy and I remember my harmony teacher explain me the building of an elementary progression starting from the root (we name it "tonica"). The further develop will have as an gravity center the "tonica". So: I VI IV II V I. We call the V dominant of the "tonica", without it there wont be any dominant. Now I am interesting to jazz (I always been, but never practist it) and when I see the "classical" progression II V I it just sound me od, as you will hear the dominant before the root, so it couldn't sound as dominant of something that hasn't sounded yet. I just watch a you tube clip in which someone was playing the progression D G C and... A as VI of C (!!!), but A is just the dominant of D which is the "tonica". So that progression would have sense to me in this way: D G C A D = I IV VII V I.
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09-10-2014 10:14 AM
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In English the term "tonic" is used.
In jazz most chords are harmonized including the 7th. So in a 2 5 1 progression the 5 is V7. Playing a G7 will sound like it wants to resolve to a C major even if you don't play the C major chord first. The progression you saw on youtube may have been Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 Am7 Dm7. All of those chords would have Cmaj7 as their "tonic" chord.
Better answers from others sure to follow.
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The dominant sound pulls you back to the tonic. The sub-dominant (II) has a sound moving away from tonic. The tonic's sound is a point of rest. So a II V I is giving a cycle of motion.
Then you add in the sub's for these chords to see the whole harmonized scale is about these sounds of motion. The push and pull of the root movements.
I subs are III and VI
II sub is IV
V sub is VII
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Maybe your harmony teacher neglected to mention Beethoven starting one of his piano concertos on a V7 chord - right in Bar 1.
There is school-book harmony, and there is harmonic practice by wild crazy-haired aliens called musicians. The two don't always agree with each other...thankfully
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Also wasn't Beethoven the radical of his day going against the church and using dominant chords. The church subsidized composers back then so they dictated what they deemed acceptable.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Maybe your harmony teacher neglected to mention Beethoven starting one of his piano concertos on a V7 chord - right in Bar 1.
There is school-book harmony, and there is harmonic practice by wild crazy-haired aliens called musicians. The two don't always agree with each other...thankfully
Today the church isn't subsidizing composers and musicians so it's..... Altered Dominants for everybody!!!!
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Not 100% accurate there, but a point well made
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Thanks to you all for your interesting answers. However I want to clarify it was not my intention to criticize the harmonic approach in jazz but understand it better. The example of my teacher of harmony was only didactic and I never thought it would be the only one to be applied in music, probably my broken English made the meaning of my words incorrectly. Much less was not my intention to disturb Beethoven that perhaps deserves further analysis to fully understand his harmonic design. I just wanted to point out that in the case of the II V I VI II..., the VI could be the dominant of II as well, just like my first lesson in elementary harmony (D G C A D = I II IV V I). I wander if the different approaches would make sensible changes, and of course how.
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In any major key, for example C Major, any of the three minor chords could be transforms into major chords, usually with a b7 added, which makes these chords brief dominant chords. So the following sequence
Em / Am / Dm / G7 / C
could become
E7 / A7 / D7 / G7 / C
Each chord becomes the V7 of the next. This is very common in jazz. Add in a few b5s and #9s and you are home and dry.
You seem to know this. But I'm not sure what you mean by "sensible changes". They are definitely effective changes, pushing the lines forward.
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My meaning is much more simply: if I play Dm / G7 / C and then A, this sounds to me as starting from Dm (which is minor mode relative to F, so they explain to me when I was student) having as dominant A, which takes you back to Dm.
If I start from Dm, having it as II, what would be the difference? In other words, why should Dm be sub-dominant if it will end with A?
I think this is due to a different approach to minor mode. As I wrote above, Dm is relative to F (D is the VI of F which has Bb in its tonality). You just explained me how Em could become E7, (Em instead is relative to G, having F# in its tonality).
This doesn't mean that I am right and you're wrong, of course: I am very interesting to jazz approach, that's why I keep studying it (I started a couple of month ago) but sometimes I remain puzzled by the way in which he proposes his own "rules." I imagine that, as in all artistic contexts, rules are created only for them to break. But in our context, I think, it's also helpful to understand why they were created, before you break them.
So I am very glad to learn jazz
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Why see the Dm as the relative minor of F, when in this context it is clearly chord ii in C?
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Do you mean Am or A7 or Amaj7? Originally Posted by marceff
If you are in the key of Dm, where does the G7 chord or the Cmajor7 chord fit in?
While it may be true that seeing a Dm by itself is ambiguous, seeing the progression Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - Am7, is not. All of those chords are clearly in the key of C major. I don't think classical theory would disagree with jazz theory on that issue. On the other hand, if the progression was Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - A7 - Dmaj7, then I imagine that both classical and jazz theory would conclude that the tonal center moves from C to D.
You seem to be suggesting that classical theory states that the first chord in any progression defines the tonal center? I don't think it does, although I stand to be corrected on that.Last edited by ColinO; 09-11-2014 at 07:30 AM.
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IMO, it's a matter of what kind of music you are used to listening to. The more jazz you listen to, the more you accept that an opening chord is not necessarily the key chord. Originally Posted by marceff
Especially if a tune starts with a Dm7 chord, it's more likely to be a ii chord than a vi (of F major). (Sometimes songs start with vi, but min7s are more often ii.)
It's even less likely to be a tonic in D minor, because of that 7th note (C). In jazz, a tonic minor chord usually has either a 6th or a major 7th extension (B or C#, on either Dm or D major), or is simply a triad. To jazz ears, adding the 7th means "this chord is about to go somewhere else".
And as soon as the G7 appears, soon after the Dm7, then the destination of C major is inevitable. Between them, Dm7 and G7 contain the entire C major scale, so that key is established by implication, before the C chord appears.
In fact, that C major destination is so predictable (to ears accustomed to jazz standards, the Great American Songbook), that composers often avoid it, try to subvert that expectation. Jazz - as someone once said - is the "sound of surprise"; the more predictable a chord sequence is, the more old-fashioned and cheesy it sounds; the more it becomes like muzak. Jazz frequently likes to keep you guessing as to what the key centre is; it keeps the music light, mobile, not pinned down; enjoyably fluid and ambiguous .
However, to totally abandon what's expected would result (probably) in nonsensical, unlistenable music. So jazz does tend to honour conventional moves in many ways.
Your classical education probably told you about "secondary dominants" (not sure what they are in Italian).
That's the process whereby an Am chord (in key of C major) can become A or A7, in order to make a stronger cadence to Dm (the ii chord). So Am is called "vi", but A or A7 is called "V/ii" = "dominant of the supertonic".
Hence Cmaj7-A7-Dm7-G7.... etc is pretty common.
Jazz sequences frequently travel through many different apparent (or secondary) key centres in this way. (Classical music does too, but jazz is less strict about certain rules.) Take the sequence to the old tune "Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out":
|C - E7 - |A7 - - - |Dm - A7 - |Dm - - - |
|F - F#dim7 - |C - A7 - |D7 - - - |G7 - - - |
The key is C major - yes it starts with the tonic this time!;
E7 is V/vi (even though the following chord is A7 not Am);
A7 is V/ii
Dm is ii (and these two bars confirm a temporary key centre of D minor)
F is IV
F#dim7 is a chromatic passing chord to C, or a "common-tone diminished" (shares the C note, acts like Cdim7);
A7 is V/ii again.
D7 is V/V.
There are many voice-leading lines you can follow through this sequence, if you want to understand how the chord changes work. (With jazz, always follow the voice-leading.)
E.g., from the F chord, a line runs from F to F# to G on the C chord - and then potentially via G# to A. Sometimes, an E7 is inserted to use that G#:
|F - F#dim7 - |C E7 A7 - |
Also, in A7-D7-G7-C you find the 7th of each chord descends to the 3rd of the next, and vice versa. As you probably know, this is standard classical practice: 7ths always descend. Classically, major 3rds (as leading tones) should rise to the root of the next chord - and they do here - but in jazz they're more often seen as descending to the 7th of the next chord.
This action of 3rds and 7ths in jazz is known as "guide tones", and is considered fundamental. Chord roots and 5ths can often be altered as long as the 3rds and 7ths are maintained.
IOW, jazz chord progressions have a lot in common with classical ones, certainly in the standard root movement in 5ths (5ths down, or 4ths up). But voice leading tends to be slightly less strictly applied.
7ths tend to be added to all chords: usually diatonic 7ths, although flattened 7ths will be added to tonic and subdominant major chords if they are to have different functions.
Eg, in key of C, the tonic chord will usually have a major 7th (B) added - in classical music, of course, this is an unstable dissonance; in jazz it's considered consonant and stable.
If it has a Bb added, that could be for two reasons: (1) (most likely) it's about to go to the IV chord (F), so has become a secondary dominant - C7 = V/IV.
(2) it could be a "blues tonic". Blues uses chords in ways very different from classical music!
The IV chord, F, meanwhile will usually have a diatonic maj7 (E). If it has a b7 (Eb), that usually means it's a blues IV chord.
But if it's followed by Em, then F7 could be seen as what classical theory terms an "augmented 6th" chord, but is known in jazz as a "tritone substitute".
This is where those 3rds and 7ths become relevant
. The dominant of Em is B, or B7 (secondary dominant if key is C major). B7 contains D# as its 3rd and A as its 7th. F7 contains A and Eb as 3rd and 7th. D# sounds the same as Eb, which means an F7 chord can take the place of B7 in moving to Em (or to E). The inner tritone of both chords is the same (D#-A, or Eb-A), and the difference in root and 5th is less important.
In fact, using F offers two extra chromatic leads down to Em: F>E and C>B. (This is the kind of move that jazz really loves.)
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To Rob: in classical music, each piece has its own "tonalità di impianto" (translation structural tonality) i.e. C has no alterations as well as Am, that is why Am is minor relative to C. G, which has one alteration (F#) has Em as minor relative (Beethoven V sinphony is in Cm and has 3 altration b and belongs to Eb - to Colin, in classical theory you never see chords or notation as C / C7 etc. We call it tonality which are made of triads which belongs to a proper tonality. So, yes, in classical music there is a "tonal center", starting from Wagner, things changed).
To Rob and Jon. No doubts that (good) music has to be surprise (not only jazz), think what a surprise when people listened to Stravinsky Petruska for the first time, as well as Shoenberg or, later, Stockhausen.
To Jon: I'd a look to chord substitution and I find it very interesting, as well as altered scale, but I also red that you can change Am7b5 to Cm; D7#9 to Ebm and so on. It seems that you can create your own rules and play.
I'll read more careful your post when I'll come back home, as I find it very interesting... still have to get used to these chords language and translate E as MI, A as LA etc... but I'll get it.
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Marceff, I'm well aware the C and Am have no accidentals or "alterations", and I'm also aware of how many flats are in Eb. To be honest, it may be a language problem, but I don't really understand what you are trying to say.
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A reposted link certainly but it may lighten up the academic discourse (hopefully in good humor without offense):
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I want to apologize, I did not mean to offend anybody Rob, I just tried to reply to your question asking "why you see Dm relative to F...". My purpose was to explain myself not giving lesson to anybody as I wrote to learn more. Sometime, writing a language that is not my own, I tend to be didactic for clarity, I did not know how to answer except with a few examples. Your answers helped me a lot to start to understand.
My question, originally, was very simple: I was just wandering why to approach to II V I VI (which is a loop), in this way rather than I IV II V I, which it made sense to me, just as I come from other experience. My goal is to understand better, not to teach...
Also I'd like to thank Medblues for video
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I meant why do you see THIS Dm as a relative of F, when it is clearly in a ii/V/I cadence in C?
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This is what I have learned in school (many years ago), so Dm belongs to F tonality, as I mentioned in my previous post and you know very well why. Now tell me why Dm (which it includes Bb) should belongs to C (which includes B). Please, don't think I want to modify Coltraine music (very funny clip medblues), at the contrary I am very interested in jazz and I wish I could play chromatic phrases as well as I sometimes listen to some web video.
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Well, "rules" are only "common practice". Originally Posted by marceff
There may be language issues here, but there is phrase in English that certain things are done "as a rule". That doesn't mean they have to be done, only that most people choose to do them.
The rules of music - even classical music - are just things that "most people chose to do" at some time. They agreed on a set of practices, which they felt worked for whatever effects they were trying to achieve.
Then other people came along later and wrote it all down, and it became "rules".
Jazz, similarly, has "common practices". Some agree with classical common practices, in as much as jazz still use the "major-minor key system". Other jazz practices derived from blues (a "non-tonal" music), as well as more advanced forms of western harmony.
Just taking your two examples:
1.
Am7b5 = A C Eb G
Cm = C Eb G.
Therefore Cm is a "rootless Am7b5". Or Am7b5 is Cm with an A bass. That's what's behind a change from one to the other: in some contexts (not in all) they are the same chord. They can perform the same function, eg, in leading to D7 and then Gm, in key of G minor.
However, if Am7b5 is regarded as the vii chord in Bb major, then replacing it with Cm is not quite the same thing; it misses A, the crucial leading tone. Likewise, to replace Cm (as ii in Bb major) with Am7b5 is not the same thing.
The two chords have similar functions in the key of G minor, but different functions in Bb major.
2.
D7#9 = D F# A C E#(F)
Ebm = Eb Gb Bb
These two chords are not the same at all; they share only one note (F#/Gb).
However, "D7#9" is often jazz shorthand for a fully altered dominant, which has a b5 or #5, as well a b9 or #9.
So an Ebm triad could represent 3 of those notes: Eb = b9, Gb(F#) = 3rd; Bb(A#) = #5.
Add D and C to those 3 notes, and you would have a D7#5b9 chord. (D F# A# C Eb)
Even so, the context needs to be clear. If D7#9 is being followed by Gm (or maybe G major), then an Ebm triad may work as a partial upper structure of the chord - but it would still need the D in the bass to make sense of it (IMO).
But if Ebm is the tonic in the key of Eb minor - or ii in Db major, or vi in Gb major - then obviously D7#9 is not a suitable replacement!
However.... in jazz, a tonic minor chord is generally regarded as having extensions from the melodic minor scale.
So, on top of an Ebm tonic, you might have a major 7th (D), a 6th (C), and/or a 9th (F). All would sound consonant (to jazz ears) above an Ebm triad. But then all those notes might also form an altered D7 chord!
So it's really just a question of how the notes in question are voiced: Ebm triad on the bottom, it will act as an extended Ebm. D low in the chord, it will act as an altered D7.
In short - there are rules here, in the sense of a logic that connects these chords. It may not be obvious on the face of it, but it's not the case that "anything goes"; it's never random. It's a language, and as such it has a grammar, syntax and vocabulary. To a classical student, it may seem like a foreign language, with bizarre practices, but to "speakers of jazz" it makes perfect sense, and follows rules.
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You seem to be confusing chords and scales - which may be a language thing (again). Originally Posted by marceff
"D minor" is a scale, which includes Bb as you say. As such (as a scale or key), it's the relative minor of F major (as we all know).
"Dm" is a chord, a triad consisting of D F A. As such, it can belong to the scales (and keys) of C major and Bb major, as well as F major.
Dm = vi in F major, ii in C major, iii in Bb major. (And iv in A minor.)
Last edited by JonR; 09-11-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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Agreed. You seem to automatically associate Dm with the key of F. Of course, it is the relative minor or chord vi in F. But the key surrounding the chord in question is C Major. Therefore most people would automatically think it is chord ii in C. The key of F wouldn't come into it.
By the way, this has nothing to do with there being a difference between classical and jazz views (I've studied both).
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IMO, there is nothing inherently wrong with considering this a D Dorian progression. If you disagree, then you are implying that chords built in thirds have no place in modal progressions. Originally Posted by marceff
The only problem people will have with that is the presence of the G7 chord, which strongly signals CM as the tonic chord. But in jazz, we see dominants that don't resolve all the time, and not all chords in a progression are built in thirds.
Besides, I've always thought that that line of thinking was a result of our ears being conditioned over decades of hearing that resolution, rather than some absolute rule of music theory.Last edited by count0; 09-11-2014 at 03:02 PM. Reason: clarification
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The language misunderstanding can concern my meaning to relate Dm as key and not as a chord (II) part of C key. But this come to my approach not be used to name chords inside a key C7/Amag7 etc. I was trained as instrument player, so when I face a score, first I go to check the key (if there is one), never find any chord written with letters under pentagram. So I have to change my prospective and start to get used to this language. Furthermore I always played written music so now I have to learn improvisation which requires to "compose" ex tempore. I hope to can rely to your help as you're giving me now.
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Indeed! Welcome to jazz! Originally Posted by marceff
Meanwhile, to clarify some language:
"Amag7 - you may mean "Amaj7", which is A C# E G#, or "A7", which is A C# E G; important distinction. (Am7 = A C E G).
"pentagram" - I think you mean what we call a "staff" or "stave". "Chord symbols" (such as "Dm", "A7", etc) are usually written above the staff.
"prospective" - you mean "perspective".
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I have to study English as well!!
PS: pentagram = is where you write notes, I mean that in classical music scores you do not find chords written as Dm, A7, etc)
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