What's the point of the V/V?

[airborne82p]

I'm fairly new to theory so don't go too deep on me here.
I get that 5ths are notes/chords that have a strong pull to return to the tonic. But, lets use C as the example. G is the 5th, and D would be the V/V. What's the point in calling it the V/V instead of the 2nd? When is it the ii chord and when is it the V/V? Is it to illustrate that the D has a pull or wants to resolve into the G? Just curious.

[fep]

Well for one it needs a unique name to distinguish it from the diatonic Dm or Dm7 (the Dm chord includes the F note from the C key signature) and the non-diationic D7 (the D7 chord includes the F# note outside of the C key signature).

Secondly, it is an attempt to describe the aural function of the chord, the D7 sounds like it's funtioning like a V chord with it's pull to the G7 chord.

A V chord has two notes, the 7th and the 3rd, that have a pull to resolve to chord tones of the next chord. In the D7 case, the 7th is the C note which wants to resolve a half step to the B note of the G7 chord and the 3rd is an F# which wants to resolve a half step to the G note of the G7 chord.

Bottom line, they're just labels to help one categorize sounds which can help the 'ear' understand and identify things.

[matt.guitarteacher]

What's the point in calling it the V/V instead of the 2nd?

Jazzers *would* just call that chord a II7 chord, because it's very common and basic for jazz.

When is it the ii chord and when is it the V/V? Is it to illustrate that the D has a pull or wants to resolve into the G?

Yeah, it's basically recognizing that in traditional Western music, the V7 as formed from the major scale, is dominant. So, when you have a dominant chord resolving down a 5th it's "functioniong" as a V.

Theory is just an attempt to explain why things "work" musically as an after the fact thing.

In jazz, chords outside of the key are so common that we just think of things in terms of vi7 II7 V7 I. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that to play some of it, but at some point you'll also want to understand that that vi is "functioning" as a ii, and the II is "functioning as a V (of V no less). :-)

[jasaco]

I'm fairly new to theory so don't go too deep on me here.
I get that 5ths are notes/chords that have a strong pull to return to the tonic. But, lets use C as the example. G is the 5th, and D would be the V/V. What's the point in calling it the V/V instead of the 2nd? When is it the ii chord and when is it the V/V? Is it to illustrate that the D has a pull or wants to resolve into the G? Just curious.

It's possible that where you're getting tripped up is that you are referring to notes ("C", "G", "D") rather than clearly distinguishing the quality of the chords. So, I would say, Dm7 would be called the ii chord and I doubt anybody would call it the V of V. Only if it were Dominant (D7) would it now be a V of V, pulling your ear toward the V chord of the key, in this case G7 (or it could be to G Major). Because it functions the same way that the V7 chord (G7) does, resolving up a 4th (or down a 5th).

Having said all that, I've only heard folks refer to V of V when analyzing chord functions of a tune; I've never heard anybody call it out on the gig. They'll just say "go to the II" or "II7"; we can pretty well guess where it's gonna go after that: to the V !

[Cunamara]

I'm fairly new to theory so don't go too deep on me here.
I get that 5ths are notes/chords that have a strong pull to return to the tonic. But, lets use C as the example. G is the 5th, and D would be the V/V. What's the point in calling it the V/V instead of the 2nd? When is it the ii chord and when is it the V/V? Is it to illustrate that the D has a pull or wants to resolve into the G? Just curious.

The point is just to have a different sound. The V is always a dominant chord (major 3rd and flatted 7th), which is used in both major and minor keys. The ii is a minor 7th in major keys and a minor 7th with a flatted 5th in minor keys.

In C major, the ii V I progression is Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7

But in the V of V situation, the progression is D7 G7 Cmaj7

Play the two and hear the difference. We can extend the V of V principle:

the very commonly used vi ii V I progression is Amin7 Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7

and can be changed to A7 D7 G7 Cmaj7

in which you have a V of V of V to the tonic. :-) but wait, there's more!

iii vi ii V I is Emin7 Amin7 Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7 and you can guess where I am going:

E7 A7 D7 G7 Cmaj7

play those and compare the sounds. That's all it's for. If you look through the Real Books you'll see lots of this sort of thing in standards. It is just a way of adding tension and release that's a bit more tense and therefore releases more dramatically.

[airborne82p]

Thanks for the clarification on this one. What I was missing was the difference between the Dm7 and the D7. All is clear. =)

[docbop]

Depending on whose style of analysis your see, but you might also see V of II, V of III and so on. Once I saw someone try to analyse a back-cycle as V of V of V of V. I try find simple way to look at thing make its easier for me to use later. I just see it and someone is setting up a chord with its V. That's all through Jazz chords being setup by their V or sometimes the II of that V so putting a II V to add some motion to a progression. If enough space a III, VI, II, V, or that backcycle of dominiants. This why knowing the CoF's is so important that where this stuff is coming from.

Jazz player don't like static anything they want motion so they see a few bars of chord they are going to add chords to add motion and give them more to work with to solo. Sometimes they'll just throw a V of a chord in to create some friction in the lines. If you can add it as a scale resource you can add it as a chord.

[christianm77]

Is it to illustrate that the D has a pull or wants to resolve into the G? Just curious.

I'd say that.

[docbop]

Thanks for the clarification on this one. What I was missing was the difference between the Dm7 and the D7. All is clear. =)

Remember another thing Jazz world does quite a bit is change minors to dominants. The sound of the b7 is still there so it works. Usually in a CofF situation so the D root will probably go down to some sort of G.

[christianm77]

Remember another thing Jazz world does quite a bit is change minors to dominants. The sound of the b7 is still there so it works. Usually in a CofF situation so the D root will probably go down to some sort of G.

There was this guy called Bach he was quite into that too.

It can also be seen as a result of sharpening a note so it lies a semitone below the root of the target chord. Bass players can this sometimes on the upbeat of every chord tone....

[docbop]

There was this guy called Bach he was quite into that too.

I'm old, but not old enough to get to hang with him. I heard he played a mean keyboard.

[christianm77]

I'm old, but not old enough to get to hang with him. I heard he played a mean keyboard.

He couldn't cut it on rhythm changes though. FACT.

[Reg]

V of anything doesn't need to have dominant function or be a dominant chord... jazz has this thing somewhat like Borrowed chords... but we call it Modal interchange because of also including modal characteriastics... creating different types of cadence besides a V7 to Imaj7 or V7/ V7 or dominant function cadence.

There are also related V movement chord patterns... Like D-7 going to G7 to C6/9 or whatever.

The D-7 can be a II-7, a V-7 of V7 or the related II-7 of a V7 chord. They all create different references which create different relationships which is one method of developing improv....

There are different organizational applications for creating different note collections.

I apologize for going to the deep end of the pool, but it might help in your future...

[Robertkoa]

I am very new to Jazz but did read some

Classical Theory to understand Composition better and Classical Music Theory has the Dominant Chord of the Key
but Composers expanded upon this by having Secondary Dominant Chords so in C Major you have V -I G7 - C and you can have a Secondary Dominant on any scale degree so I - Vof iii ( Secondary Dominant of Eminor ) .
You can also have a VII of any scale degree such as I - VII of vi ( g sharp half diminished to A minor ) AKA G sharp minor 7 flat five to A minor or could be a G # diminished 7 to A minor [vii° of vi].

Just noticed my phone has the superscript for a diminished 7th Chord ..lol.

I visualize and "hear" the Tension- Release more when I see the Roman Numeral Function rather than just the chords and am starting to improvise the tensions linearly which is a cool sound and can imply those even with no chords playing OR when the passing chord isn't being played in the Music I'm improvising over- so this is working..

So in Jazz we can also use something like a T7 or Tmajor 7 etc to indicate a Tritone Substitution ( for a Secondary Dominant or
Major or Major 7 secondary Dominant etc.)

I am not as concerned with Standards but writing new stuff so thinking of the Roman Numeral Functions really helps me to feel the flow of the chords and " hear" them probably because I don't have experience reading charts and was looking at
"Harmony by Walter Piston" trying to broaden my Harmonic Concept in my teens.

It seems that Jazz Musicians have a very potent working knowledge of Classical and Modern Theory and it's right under their fingers usually...

Do you guys have Symbols for Tritone Substitutions or are they used ?

Cause sometimes the analysis is

ii -T- I and sometimes it's ii of T- T- I where the entire [ii of T - T] is "borrowed" resolving down to I.

Is this analyzed this way ?

[JonR]

Thanks for the clarification on this one. What I was missing was the difference between the Dm7 and the D7. All is clear. =)

This is probably going to complicate it more than you need right now, but...

As Robertkoa says, you can have secondary dominants for any chord in the key (except vii), not just V. You will see them all the time in jazz (otherwise I wouldn't bother with the following!).

So for key of C major, you'll find all these:
D = V/V (goes to G)
E = V/vi (goes to Am)
A = V/ii (goes to Dm)
B = V/iii (goes to Em)
C7 = V/IV (goes to F)

Notice only one secondary dominant actually needs the b7 added. That's because the major 3rds of the other four are chromatic, forming leading tones up to the root of the following chord - and that's all they need to have a "dominant" function.
Meanwhile, C already has major 3rd (leading tone to F), so it needs the Bb to make it into "V/IV" and not plain "I".

Of course, jazz adds 7ths to every damn chord anyway! I'm just saying that, in theory, it's not always necessary to define "dominant" chord; it's just habit. ("Dominant" only means "V of key".)
(In rock and country music, you'll often find V/V without a 7th.)

Jazz tends to add a secondary ii chord before all those V's, so typically you'll see this (again, all in key of C):
Am7-D7 > G(7)
Bm7b5-E7 > Am
Em7b5-A7 > Dm
F#m7b5-B7 > Em
Gm7-C7 > F

Notice you need a "m7b5" chord when heading for a minor chord. Am7 and Bm7b5 are diatonic to C major, so have a dual function here. Am7 = "vi of C", but also (when followed by D7) "ii of G".

Tritone subs are also common, which can be seen as bII of the following chord, sometimes analysed as "subV":

Ab7 > G7
Bb7 > Am
Eb7 > Dm
F7 > Em
Db7 > C

These could be preceded by their own ii chord (Ebm7-Ab7 > G), or the original ii chord (Am7-Ab7 > G).

Lastly, you can have "secondary leading tone" chords, which often replace V7s. These are always dim7 chords (not m7b5). Again in key of C major:
F#dim7 > G
G#dim7 > Am
C#dim7 > Dm
D#dim7 > Em
Edim7 > F

Jazz players will often see dim7s as rootless 7b9s (F#dim7 = D7b9 without the D), but dim7s are chords in their own right.

As Robertkoa also says, this all derives from classical theory. Jazz has (believe it or not) simplified the whole thing a little, and is also more liberal with how the chords resolve.

[Irez87]

Easy explanation for V/V

Guide tone movement

For instance the V of Ab is Eb

The V of Eb is Bb

Lets look at the third movement of the progression Bb7 Eb7 Ab6

D goes to Db goes to C

chromatic movement

there.

This is why singing through the changes is just as important as playing through the changes (maybe even more so)

[JonR]

^ Exactly right. Jazz harmony (maybe more than classical) all comes down to chromatic voice-leading: half-steps between chords, up or (more commonly) down.
Most alterations (maybe all?), as well as chord subs, can be explained as a way of introducing chromatic transitions between chords - because the vanilla diatonic moves are too often in boring (weak) whole steps.

The rest is all just classification - because the types of alteration tend to fall into groups, identifiable sets. But once you see the half-step moves, then it all makes sense, and the classifications (the theory jargon) are secondary. Naming them does help with the overview, but you should never work from the theory to the music - always the other way. Study how the music works (note by note, chord by chord, checking all the voice-leading); then - if you're interested - find out the names for all those effects.

[fumblefingers]

Isn't this just a discussion of Secondary Dominants?

[Robertkoa]

I think one of the main things about the V of V is that in many Jazz Tunes...the V of V
along with the " Turnaround" identifies and announces the " Home Key " !

Despite all the Modulations ( Key Changes)
or Temporary Key Changes ( " Transitional Keys" ) ( Temporary Keys) and even maybe a " Bridge" or "Chorus" ( AKA the "Hook")
which sometimes are in a New Key..

There is often that V of V Chord followed by the I AND a Turnaround and sometimes a second Turnaround leading back to the Home Key which is the big " Release" after all that Tension...and forms a big Reference Point for the Improvisers and hopefully the Audience..
I notice this when Improvising over unfamiliar Tunes.

Do you Jazz Veterans kind of agree with this ?

[christianm77]

I think one of the main things about the V of V is that in many Jazz Tunes...the V of V
along with the " Turnaround" identifies and announces the " Home Key " !

Despite all the Modulations ( Key Changes)
or Temporary Key Changes ( " Transitional Keys" ) ( Temporary Keys) and even maybe a " Bridge" or "Chorus" ( AKA the "Hook")
which sometimes are in a New Key..

There is often that V of V Chord followed by the I AND a Turnaround and sometimes a second Turnaround leading back to the Home Key which is the big " Release" after all that Tension...and forms a big Reference Point for the Improvisers and hopefully the Audience..
I notice this when Improvising over unfamiliar Tunes.

Do you Jazz Veterans kind of agree with this ?

Yup.

To get back to the OP, I don't think jazz musicians would refer to D7 in the key of C as the V/V - I would usually say II7, and bear in mind that chord progressions like to generally move by backcycling. But the V/V is a classical music theory term to indicate that the D7 is acting as a dominant (V) into a temporary tonic - G which itself is a dominant (V) of the home key.

There are true modulations to dominant - quite common. Embraceable You, Stella and Once I Had Secret Love come into mind. But in the case of the V/V we are looking at (AFAIK) something quite short lived. Such as the A section of A Train, Girl From Ipanema or Exactly Like You.

Something to watch out for is a move to relative minor (vi) followed by the II7. Extremely common. For example, in C:

C | Bm7b5 E7b9 | Am7 D7 | Dm7 G7 | C
Dm Dm/C | Bm7b5 E7b9 | Am7 D7 | Dm7 G7 | C
G7 (G#o7) | Am(maj7) | D7 | G7 | C

etc...

[christianm77]

This is probably going to complicate it more than you need right now, but...

As Robertkoa says, you can have secondary dominants for any chord in the key (except vii), not just V. You will see them all the time in jazz (otherwise I wouldn't bother with the following!).

So for key of C major, you'll find all these:
D = V/V (goes to G)
E = V/vi (goes to Am)
A = V/ii (goes to Dm)
B = V/iii (goes to Em)
C7 = V/IV (goes to F)

Notice only one secondary dominant actually needs the b7 added. That's because the major 3rds of the other four are chromatic, forming leading tones up to the root of the following chord - and that's all they need to have a "dominant" function.
Meanwhile, C already has major 3rd (leading tone to F), so it needs the Bb to make it into "V/IV" and not plain "I".

Of course, jazz adds 7ths to every damn chord anyway! I'm just saying that, in theory, it's not always necessary to define "dominant" chord; it's just habit. ("Dominant" only means "V of key".)
(In rock and country music, you'll often find V/V without a 7th.)

Jazz tends to add a secondary ii chord before all those V's, so typically you'll see this (again, all in key of C):
Am7-D7 > G(7)
Bm7b5-E7 > Am
Em7b5-A7 > Dm
F#m7b5-B7 > Em
Gm7-C7 > F

Notice you need a "m7b5" chord when heading for a minor chord. Am7 and Bm7b5 are diatonic to C major, so have a dual function here. Am7 = "vi of C", but also (when followed by D7) "ii of G".

Tritone subs are also common, which can be seen as bII of the following chord, sometimes analysed as "subV":

Ab7 > G7
Bb7 > Am
Eb7 > Dm
F7 > Em
Db7 > C

These could be preceded by their own ii chord (Ebm7-Ab7 > G), or the original ii chord (Am7-Ab7 > G).

Lastly, you can have "secondary leading tone" chords, which often replace V7s. These are always dim7 chords (not m7b5). Again in key of C major:
F#dim7 > G
G#dim7 > Am
C#dim7 > Dm
D#dim7 > Em
Edim7 > F

Jazz players will often see dim7s as rootless 7b9s (F#dim7 = D7b9 without the D), but dim7s are chords in their own right.

As Robertkoa also says, this all derives from classical theory. Jazz has (believe it or not) simplified the whole thing a little, and is also more liberal with how the chords resolve.

You do come across the odd thing such as Ab7 C which defy these normal rules, but the basis of this stuff is always soem sort of chromatic voiceleading - a secondary leading note somewhere is getting resolved....

[Robertkoa]

Ironically- 20th Century Harmony Books, Courses or "Modern"Harmony like the Book from Vincent Persichetti (which I need to get a new Copy to pick up all that I missed before...
)
Has included a LOT of the stuff the "Jazz" Guys pioneered and yes as mentioned simplified and even codified..so the Jazz Vocabulary and "whatever works" breaking all the "Rules" and still making it sound good - is now part of the study of Harmony when you get to the 20th Century.

I haven't looked at that book in a very very long time but I remember Persichetti saying
" Any Chord can follow any other Chord".

But how can I use that in a cool Harmonically Expanded Blues Tune kinda like Steely Dan - without being a Musical Genius like Becker/ Fagen lol.

@ Christian- thanks for verifying that often we have the VofV Chord followed by a Turnaround or Two which Identifies and Announces the Home Key to the Players and the Audience...( and the "Head" or Main Theme of the Tune)- great when you are rolling along but get "lost" in the changes....

[christianm77]

Ironically- 20th Century Harmony Books, Courses or "Modern"Harmony like the Book from Vincent Persichetti (which I need to get a new Copy to pick up all that I missed before...
)
Has included a LOT of the stuff the "Jazz" Guys pioneered and yes as mentioned simplified and even codified..so the Jazz Vocabulary and "whatever works" breaking all the "Rules" and still making it sound good - is now part of the study of Harmony when you get to the 20th Century.

I haven't looked at that book in a very very long time but I remember Persichetti saying
" Any Chord can follow any other Chord".

But how can I use that in a cool Harmonically Expanded Blues Tune kinda like Steely Dan - without being a Musical Genius like Becker/ Fagen lol.

@ Christian- thanks for verifying that often we have the VofV Chord followed by a Turnaround or Two which Identifies and Announces the Home Key to the Players and the Audience...( and the "Head" or Main Theme of the Tune)- great when you are rolling along but get "lost" in the changes....

Classical guys borrowed very little from jazz musicians harmonically - with the exception of the blue notes. Mostly it was the other way around.

It started early on - Bix Beiderbecke was hip to Debussy.... There are distinctive techniques for jazz harmony and arranging - four way close say, later on the melodic minor modes - also the whole tone scale thing is probably an independent discovery of jazz players, although who knows, maybe they got that from Debussy... In any case, jazz players having been using the whole tone scale since the 1920s at least.

But jazz harmony techniques like this AFAIK have had very limited effect on classical music. For example - Vaughan Williams loved jazz, but his use of the modes and floating sus chord sounds in say the intro to Lark Ascending was more influenced by folk music - bear in mind the jazz he would have known would have been the music of the swing era.

Check out what Holst and Stravinsky were doing early 20th century say with polychords. The half-whole scale was commonplace in Russian music around the end of the 19th century, for example. It took a several decades for the jazz to catch up :-)

Having read that book ages ago, I would say everything in it stems from 20th century classical. For example, I don't think it mentions melodic minor harmony does it?

In fact, more recently we can say that jazz directly influenced the removal of complex harmony from concert music, in fact. Steve Reich was influenced by middle period Coltrane and his music is harmonically very static. Usually just a major 11th or something, for minutes on end. Reich was a radical, though.

It's taken a long time for musicians like Mark Anthony Turnage, who genuinely have one foot in the jazz world and one foot in conventional classical music world (of opera and so on), to appear.

Jazz's influence on classical music was largely the rhythmic sensibility, blues melody and perhaps some elements of instrumentation....

[Robertkoa]

Thanks Christian- I just re -read this Post you left.

It is really good to have" Black Belts" in Applied Music Theory on here to consult...

Just for fun I am going to see which Theory Book gave a nod to Jazz and put it here if I can find it.