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I've been working on these for about ten years, so y'all I hope you can use them.
SimpleAltered.xlsx charts the basic altered scales (Major, Dominant Major, Sub-Dominant Major, Relative Jazz minor, Jazz Minor, Relative Harmonic Minor and Harmonic Major) in all keys. This file should print out on letter size paper.
SecondOrderAltered.xlsx charts altered scales which are alterations of the 7 basic altered scales listed above. also in all keys. This file requires legal size or larger paper.
I posted these charts in .PDF format later in this thread. I should print out a lot better than in Excel format...Last edited by Richard-H; 09-14-2014 at 12:18 PM.
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08-08-2014 08:12 PM
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"Dominant Major, Sub-Dominant Major, Relative Jazz minor,...Relative Harmonic Minor ..." - these are all new terms to me.
What are their conventional names? In what way are they "altered", and from what? (I only know one "altered scale", by that specific name).
And you have alterations of the alterations too??
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O.K., Let me explain.....
These are the conventional names according to classical music theory (except for the Jazz Minor which is called the melodic minor in classical theory)
There are 7 tertiary chords built off the notes of a major scale and 7 corresponding modes, these are: I maj7 (ionian), ii min7 (dorian), iii min7 (phrygian), IV maj7 (lydian), V dom7 (mixolydian), vi min7 (aeolian), vii min7b5 (locrian).
Now, since the invention of tempered tuning (which is the basis of the major scale):
Subtle modulation or key secondary areas can be created by altering one note of any of the chords:
Maj7 chords can become Dom 7, Min 7 chords can become Dom 7, and min7b5 becomes dim7. The corresponding modes can also be altered:
I Maj7--->I Dom7 Ionian--->Mixolydian Major Key--->Sub-Dominant Key
ii min7-->II Dom 7 Dorian--->Mixolydian Major Key--->Dominant Key
iiimin7-->III Dom7 Phyrigian-->Phyrigian+3 Major Key--->Relative Harmonic Minor Scale
IV Maj7--> IV Dom7 Lydian--->Lydian Dominant? Major Key --->Jazz Minor Scale
V Dom7-->V Dom7 Mixolydian-->Mixolydian Major Key--->Major Key
vi min7-->VI Dom7 Aeolian--->Aeolian+3 Major Key--->Relative Jazz Minor Scale
vii min7b5--> vii dim7 Locrian-->??? Major Key--->Harmonic Major Scale
Each of the above scales, like the Major scale, contains 7 modes.
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the "Jazz" names of all the modes...
But I can assure you that there is NO inconsistencies between Jazz and classical theory--they are the same, just semantic differences. These charts show how all "Jazz Scales" are derived from tertiary harmony. Any "Jazz Scales" not apparent in these charts are actually scales created by omitting tones or adding chromatic tones.Last edited by Richard-H; 08-09-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Richard-H
Good stuff,
Some one note changes I like are these:
Flatten the 3rd note of the Major scale and you get a Jazz Minor scale (Jazz Melodic Minor).
Raise the 7th of a Natural minor scale and you get a Harmonic minor scale.
Lower the 6th note of the Major scale and you get the Harmonic Major scale.
but, what about Whole Tone and Whole Half Diminished jazz scales?
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Though my definition of "Whole Tone Scale" is a little different than the common definition, my definitionis derived from alterations of basic tertiary harmony and the cycle of 5ths. The common definition is just a scale created based on mathematical symmetry. Music is actually asymmetrical.
There are several ways that a "whole tone scale" is derived, these are shown on the SecondOrderAltered.xlsx chart.
One example is a major scale with both a b9 and a b3. This corresponds to a "Whole Tone Scale" (common definition), with an extra note (i.e. two semi-tones in a row). This also means that the chords derived (my definition) make for some interesting harmonies.
The "Whole/Half diminished scale" would correspond to a "Jazz Minor b5" scale with a chromatic tone before the 13th.
It could also correspond to a change in scale mid-phrase.
Since music has harmonic motion changing scales/modes mid-phrase is good phraseology. Most musical phrases should start in one mode and end in another.Last edited by Richard-H; 08-09-2014 at 12:03 PM.
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You mean the names you've given them are conventional classical ones? Originally Posted by Richard-H
I realise the individual words are classical terms, but I've not seen them in those combinations before, in either classical or jazz theory.
"tertian" Originally Posted by Richard-H
Right... Originally Posted by Richard-H
It is? Originally Posted by Richard-H
Understood. Originally Posted by Richard-H
Er.... yes, understood, but it took me a while... Originally Posted by Richard-H
(btw, typo correction: "Phrygian")
Well, there are four different scale types there: major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, harmonic major. Originally Posted by Richard-H
Some of the ones you mention are modes of the others.
I do understand you're talking about common modulations (to IV, V or relative minor), I just think of the processes a little differently.
Eg, I think of most of the changes you mention (diatonic chords to dom7s) as secondary dominants. That's classical theory (as you probably know), and has nothing to do with modes.
So, when vi min7 becomes VI dom7, it's normally as V/ii, nothing to do with "relative jazz minor scale" - although the latter does usually fit.
Meanwhile, when the viim7b5 becomes viidim7, that's usually a borrowing from the parallel minor key (harmonic minor), not harmonic major. You're quite right that harmonic major would fit (interesting observation), but I've not seen that in jazz theory before, which usually suggests the WH dim scale there (as it does for any dim7 chord).
IOW, dim7 chords derive (classically) from the vii degree of harmonic minor. However, the jazz orthodoxy I'm aware of (which I don't necessarily support) tends to recommend WH dim as the improv scale, not harmonic minor. That may be because the WH dim scale is neutral as to key, which suits the famous ambiguity (symmetry) of dim7 chords.
But harmonic major makes an interesting alternative.
So my perspective on such chord alterations is functional in the first instance, not modal. I mean, normally (in common practice, in most music I see) they tend to be functional, and only if they have no obvious function do modal considerations arise. Otherwise, for me, the modal angle tends to introduce unnecessary complexity.
YMMV
That's OK, I am... Originally Posted by Richard-H
(not that it's important)
Yes, agreed, pretty much, at least if we're talking functional harmony (keys and tertian chord progressions). Originally Posted by Richard-H
Jazz use of modes, however, is quite different from the use of modes in classical music (or rather pre-classical and post-classical). It does have something in common with Impressionism.
"tertian" - yes I know I'm being irritatingly pedantic Originally Posted by Richard-H
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For pentatonics, blues scale and bebop scales, agreed. Originally Posted by Richard-H
I guess you could say the same for wholetone and diminished, but IMO they're better understood as synthetic in their own right, not derived from others.
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1. Your awfully hung up on "Jazz theory" vs. "Classical theory". There are only semantic differences based on culture.
2. The "Jazz Modes" are not new to jazz, they were well known by the great European classical composers. What you call "Classical modes" refers to "modal music", that is something entirely different.
3. It seems odd that you do not understand that the relative dominant of C major is G Major which corresponds to altering a Cmaj7 chord to a C dom7. Same point for sub-dominant major. That's really basic stuff.
4. Yes, there are 4 basic scales, but the Dominant Major and sub-dominant major keys are a one note alteration of any major key. While, by raising the root note of a major (ionian) scale, a Jazz Minor scale is created which implies a VI Dom7. This is the Relative Jazz Minor. There is also a parallel Jazz minor created by lowering the 3rd note of the major scale. So there are two Jazz minor scales that are one alteration from any major scale.
5. Yes, when a vi min7 becomes a VI Dom7, it's also known as the V7 of ii. Since that requires raising the root note of the corresponding major scale, it creates the relative Jazz Minor.
6. When the viimin7b5 is altered to a viidim7, the closest scale to use is the harmonic major. You can use the Harmonic minor, but it's a 2 note scale alteration. That's covered on the second chart. I find that the Harmonic major is a more romantic sound than the harmonic minor. In music sometimes altering two notes instead on one is preferred. For example if a F Dom7 is played in the key of C major, most people would prefer to hear a Bb major scale (i.e. F mixolydian, C Dorian) rather than a C Jazz minor.
7. There really isn't any such thing as "Jazz Theory" exactly. I've studied quite a lot of "Jazz Theory" but it's more ad hoc observations not a definitive theory.
8. The WH Dimished scale, like the blues scale is a very useful set of notes that uses ambiguity to allow quite a lot of freedom for the player without hitting an obvious clunker, but it's not derived from the circle of fifths or any systematic analysis of harmony & melody. As i stated above, it's a Jazz minor b5 with an extra chromatic tone.
9. I would tend to agree with your statement about functional vs. modal. In fact there is no doubt that the second set of charts is so complex that no human could every memorize it to the point of using it to improvise, so improvising based on functionality is the only way anyone could deal with it. This is something like how rockers use the blues scale - it's not always exactly right, it's not always the best scale to use, but it is an easy scale to blow over without fear of hitting any absolute clunkers.
10. These charts are based on the circle of 5ths and are absolutely systematic (like the circle of 5ths). These hopefully will introduce people to a more accurate understanding of how advanced harmony/melody works.
11. yes, the major scale is based on tempered tuning.
12. No, I meant "tertiary". I'm from New York where malapropisms are a matter of cultural pride!Last edited by Richard-H; 08-09-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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What things are called in music - scales, modes, etc - is far less important than what they are. It's a bit of snobbery to get hung up on the names. I was at a Chick Corea seminar where he couldn't remember the names of Harmonic or Melodic minor scales. But he sure did know what they were. The only time it's important to know what they're called is when you're teaching, so you can identify what you're talking about.
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Forgive me for being thicker than an offspring of village idiot and TV weather girl - but could somebody explain the purpose and inner logic of this chart. Preferably like you are talking to not very bright 8yo.
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The purpose of the charts is to provide a definitive way of displaying how harmony and melody work in terms of scales and chords.
These charts can provide away of analyzing complex chord progressions to determine the optimal scale to use at any time.
It can also be used to help composers find new ideas when they get stuck searching for "what to do next".
The "inner logic" of the first chart (simpleAltered.xlsx) is to delineate the scale derived from simple secondary dominant chords. These are built using the same order of accidentals found in the circle of fifths, but unlike the circle of fifths, the accidentals are non-cumulative. The result is 6 "Altered Scales" closely related to any Major scale and it's modes.
The second chart (SecondOrderAltered.xlsx) takes each scale from the first chart and basically does the same thing to each of the altered scales in the first chart, so for each of these altered scales it shows alterations of the altered scales. This results both in showing how many common scales are related to each other and how complex scales are derived from the circle of fifths.
Or you can turn up the volume, put on a fuzz box and wail out, because most people can't tell the difference anyway!
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You are talking to bright 15yo here. Originally Posted by Richard-H
Looking at simpleAltered.xlsx page 1.
Row 2 has columns for all 12 notes and row 3 has their relation to current key - for page 1 it is F#.
So looking at rows: 15,16,17 I see that you spell out quality of diatonic chords build on step of the scale - eg column K says "chord build on F# for F# scale has Maj7 quality".
But other groups of rows spell out scales built on other steps of F# major scale:
D# harmonic is built on #5
G# relative jazz minor is built on #1 (whu not 2?)
etc
For each of those scales the intersection of column and row demonstrates diatonic chord built on that scale step.
But how are those scales related to F# major (see I told you it was very un-educated question) ?
And I can't wail - fuzzbox or not - with a straight guitar face.
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When it says D# Harmonic minor, "built on #5", it means that when you raise the 5th tone of a F# Major scale you get a D# Harmonic Minor scale. (Yes, it's a mode of the D# Harmonic minor, if you start on F#, if you want to be picky) Originally Posted by woland
Likewise if you raise the root note (#1) of a F# Major scale you get a G# Jazz minor.
The scales are a one note alteration of F# major.
You'd probably do better if you scrolled down to the sheet that for C Major. I hate thinking in F# major or Gb Major!
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Another interesting point about the logic in developing these charts:
After creating the first chart (simpleAltered.xlsx), I thought about the 4 types of scales that it used (i.e. Major, Jazz Minor, Harmonic Minor and Harmonic Major)
What these 4 scales have in common is that they are all 7 note scales, that they do not have 2 sequential semi-tones and that they are not modes of one another.
There are two and only two other scales that fit those criteria: The Jazz Minor +5 and the Jazz Minor b5 scales.
Neither of these scales yield a lot of new harmonization, but the fourth mode of the Jazz Minor +5 is a Dom7(+9,+11,13). This is an interesting mode with a 'honky tonk' sound. It's the only mode that gives us the Dom7+9 chord (i.e. the 'Jimi Hendrix chord').
Additionally, the fourth mode of the Jazz Minor b5 is Dom7(b9,+11,13) which is more commonly know in jazz as a Dom7b5(b9 13) (b5/+11 in the bass) and is used as a tri-tone substitute a lot in jazz.
It's these two scales that started my interest in alterations of altered scales.
In the chart named SecondOrderAltered.xlsx, I dropped the criteria for not allowing 2 sequential semi-tones so as to include the whole tone and double harmonic minor scale. This also yielded a lot of scales like the major b9, major +9 etc... I do not know of any music that incorporates these scales.....
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Richard,
I once did an experiment to identify all the 7 note scale structures with no more than 1 consecutive half step.
I did it by combining all the tetra chords that fulfilled this possibility. Like you, I came up with 42 structures.
These 42 were the children of 6 parent scales. Major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major and the 2 others that you are referring to as Jazz Minor +5 and the Jazz Minor b5 scales. From my perspective at the time they were
7 of 8 notes of the diminished scale and decided that it would be sufficient to address their content in that context.
At a certain point, influenced somewhat by interacting with some post tonal theory people, I started thinking of note collections rather than scales and arpeggios. In that it embraced all possible combinations, it suited my temperament. Every note collection smaller than 12 is a subset of a larger collection. Every note collection larger than 1 has subsets of smaller collections. Later I came across the Wayne Krantz book, an Improvisors OS which takes a similar organizational approach. Basically, I either analyze for content or just improvise to discover some of the possibilities.
I start with the commonly used collections and gradually work my way out from there.
My present off and on approach is addressing hexatonics, inspired by the Tim Miller/Mick Goodrick book that looks at the
20 three note structures that combine into 10 chord pairs.
Your approach is interesting because it emphasizes commonalities and small differences.
For some reason in my browser, your 2nd chart is reading smaller than my eyesight can handle.
I look forward to check out closer when I get past that technical hurdle.
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Much interested. Installed Microsoft Excel Viewer. Can open the large file, but not the small file. Don't know why. Says format or file extension wrong. Also would not open with OpenOffice 3.2
Last edited by fluo2005; 08-16-2014 at 11:33 AM.
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That's surprising. I saved these in Excel 2013, but I'm able to open them using Excel 2002. Though I've never used Excel Viewer, I'd imagine that Excel 2013 viewer should open these without a problem. Originally Posted by fluo2005
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I tried unzipping the downloaded file with IZArc rather than with 7-Zip which I'd used at first, and the small file is now accepted by the Excel Viewer. Now that I can see the contents, I'll need to decipher the codes used. I'll take my time.
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Twice you stated that the tempered scale is the basis of the major scale. I don't know what you mean by "based on", as major scales and all the other classical modes were around for a long time before equal temperament. The notes and intervals in a major scale came about because they are (mostly) lower in the overtone series. That means that they sound good with the tonic note. The notes in scales before tempering actually sounded more in tune than modern tempered scales. Equal temperament is based on the chromatic scale, so as to make all the half-steps equal. There was no reason to temper anything before chromaticism.
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What was called the 'Major Scale' before equal temperament was very different than what we call the 'Major Scale' today. Originally Posted by David L
That's just a plain bizarre statement. The notes of the major scale are all each a fundamental tone and each has harmonics that are integer multiples of that fundamental.The notes and intervals in a major scale came about because they are (mostly) lower in the overtone series. That means that they sound good with the tonic note.
The half steps in an equal tempered system are not at all equal. If they were the frets on a guitar would be equally spaced. Equal temperament means that the notes are adjusted an equal amount logarithmically, not that the half steps are all equal.The notes in scales before tempering actually sounded more in tune than modern tempered scales. Equal temperament is based on the chromatic scale, so as to make all the half-steps equal. There was no reason to temper anything before chromaticism.
The notes in scales before equal temperament theoretically would have sounded more in tune if those notes did not have any harmonics. But in reality all instruments have harmonics, so the 'natural' scale did not sound very good as compared with the major scale as we know it today. The reason that equal temperament was created was so that the harmonics created from all the notes would create a greater degree of constructive interference between each other (i.e. harmonize), the trade off is that the fundamentals (i.e. the notes of the major scale) are a tiny bit off.
Before equal temperament intervals of a major third and minor sixth sounded horrible. Harmonization was done in fourth and fifths. Modulation wasn't really possible. Extended harmonies, like Major7 & Dominant13 did not work at all.
Equal temperament made chromaticism possible - your putting the cart before the horse on that issue.
One easy way of understanding this by playing complex jazz chords with a fuzz box (or other distortion units). Complex chords sound horrible thru a fuzz box, even major thirds sound horrible. Maybe if you cut the treble a major third will just sound a bit funky. Only fourths, fifths & octaves sound right.
That's because distortion units amplify the natural harmonic series off of each note - effectively creating a 'natural scale' on each of the fundamentals. Only the lower harmonics harmonize, once the upper harmonics are amplified it sounds terrible. This is also why most jazz guitarists prefer a bassy tone - even without a fuzz box too much treble brings out the upper harmonics which sound terrible in complex harmonization.
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To further explain: the notes in the major scale came about because they are (mostly)octave transpositions of the lower notes in the overtone series. The fifth is an octave lower than the second overtone, etc.
Untempered intervals are actually MORE in tune with the fundamental, not less, as you stated. They are more in tune with the natural overtones of the fundamental. Any good violinist or singer automatically untempers their notes so that they sound MORE in tune, according to the chord being played at the time.
Chromaticism started before equal temperament, they just couldn't get very far around the circle of fifths without sounding out of tune. So equal temperament was developed to extend chromaticism further, it certainly didn't pre-date it. My cart and horse are just fine.
Yes, half-steps are logarithmically equal, which means they are perceived as equal, which is what is important in this discussion. They are all the same amount of out-of-tune, which is why equal temperament is intrinsically out of tune. Keyboards before tempering were not logarithmically equal, which means that some intervals and keys were more in tune than others.
You said, "The reason that equal temperament was created was so that the harmonics created from all the notes would create a greater degree of constructive interference between each other (i.e. harmonize), the trade off is that the fundamentals (i.e. the notes of the major scale) are a tiny bit off." No, it was created so that all the keys sound the same, the trade-off being that they are all the same amount of out-of-tune.
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The term 'The major scale' is just words. It is a matter of semantics. It is universally accepted that this term refers to a set of notes that are a subset of of the equal tempered chromatic scale. Originally Posted by David L
It seems that you are trying to pick a inconsequential statement I made in order to hijack this thread. It is very under handed. If you want to discuss equal temperament vs. the natural scale, please start your own thread.
BTW, the microtonal adjustments made by nonfixed pitched instruments are most probably not a revision to the 'natural' scale but more of an adjustment to 'Lucy tuning' which is the most accurate known temperament. That system of temperament is so complex (60 notes per octave, if I remember correctly) as to require an entirely new semantics to describe it's harmonic possibilities.
Once again please only post on this thread questions or statements that are relative to the charts I posted.
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You keep arguing against my points, yet I'm not supposed to answer back? I never intended to hijack the thread, just respond to your statements.
"BTW, the microtonal adjustments made by nonfixed pitched instruments are most probably not a revision to the 'natural' scale but more of an adjustment to 'Lucy tuning' which is the most accurate known temperament. That system of temperament is so complex (60 notes per octave, if I remember correctly) as to require an entirely new semantics to describe it's harmonic possibilities." ---- If a player microtonaly adjusts their pitch so that it sounds in tune, they ARE tuning to the natural overtone series.
I won't hijack anymore if you don't either.
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Here's a .PDF version of these charts. It should print out better than the excel version:
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Interesting, Richard-H,
but I prefer to stay in my systematic study of Nicolas Slonimsky "thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns"
cheers
H.B
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I studied "thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns" quite a few years ago. In the end I really didn't like that approach, though I will say that making those type of lines sound musical requires great technique. Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
Actually I'd love to discuss the "thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns", but I'd appreciate it if it were discussed in a different thread.
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