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Hello everybody,
after seeing the nice videos with Barry Harris explaining his concepts about the diminished sixth scale (I won't resume it, there are articles and books to google for in the internet), I spent a couple of days digging' the method, and actually it was fun discovering many of the concepts I already knew, just placed in a different perspective.
Within the method I found the voicing progression, ii-V substitution, tritone subs, "backdoor" cadence, ecc...
My point now is: everything is interesting and funny, what is the real value of that method for people that laboriously already learned, although in a different order, those concepts?
And if the previous thought makes sense, who (and when) could get advantage of learning that way?
It's anyway a very nice recap, for me!
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08-01-2014 06:30 PM
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There have been a few threads on Barry Harris teachings so you should search for those. Also Alan Kingstone who wrote a guitar version of the Barry Harris method is/was a member and answers posts on Harris approach from time to time.
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I approached the Barry Harris Method through Alan Kingstone's very well written book about the subject and not through Barry's videos or book. I decided to "re-learn" the fretboard using Alan's voicings and movement exercises.
The impact of Alan's book for me cannot be understated here:
1. On the fretboard, I no longer see the fingering of a chord as the chord itself, but as the possible chords it is part of.
2. When I play through a chord progression it is more about movement through a tonal center, rather than progression to a tonic.
Of course, I was never exposed to the 6th/dim concept before this so I had no preconcieved ideas, YMMV.
v/r,
Christopher
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hello, thanks for answering..
After spending some more time on the method I continue to find new ways of getting what i already got by "traditional" paths, so I gave up...
Although very cool and open-minded, I felt I was trying to re-learn the same things I already knew...
It would have been perfect if I found it in my very first beginning in studying harmony...
The only thing I'm continuing to practice is the 8-chord harmonization of the "dim 6 scale" (to me that's a major bebop: major scale plus #5/b6 note)
That system, also applied to other different scales, or pitch collections, it a method to easily get different unusual chords under my fingers, without going mad with theory/analysis, etc...
bye!
Enrico
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Enrico,
One thing that is interesting to me is how much impact adding a single note makes.
C D E F G Ab A B C
Cma7 / Cma7+
Dm7 / Dm7b5 / Ddim
Em7 / E7 / E7+
FmMa7 / Fma7 / Fdim / FdimMa7
G7
Abma7+ / Abdim / AbdimMa7
Am7 / AmMa7
Bdim / Bm7b5
8 note scales can be conceived of as two or more 7 note scales joining forces.
In this instance the 8 note scale houses all the harmonic content of C Major,
C Harmonic Major and A Harmonic Minor. It is more expansive than a single
7 noter and more manageable than 12 tone chromatic.
Last edited by bako; 08-12-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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I've been reading on Dizzy Gillespie and he talks about it and say people think it's about the notes and they try it and it doesn't work. Same with Sheryl Bailey's stuff people who only see her handouts and try it and have trouble getting it. As Dizzy says it not the notes it the Bebop rhythm they aren't getting it takes a certain rhythm to make the notes work. Sheryl Bailey and another I've read get into what note(s) to start on, on what beat to make this stuff work.
I've seen some of the Barry Harris stuff and it too seems to talk about notes, but listen to Barry play the stuff then you hear those rhythms coming in to make this stuff fall in place. The key to the Church of Parkerism lies in the rhythms.
I've also been reading on Coltrane and some interesting comments on tone and sound as related to type of tune and lines to play. Once find a way to explain it better I'll try to start a thread on it, cause I think it relates to guitar too.
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Originally Posted by bako
The most common effect of this "disruptive" effect on chords and harmony is the one caused by simply lowering the third, from major to melodic minor harmony... a whole new world!
Right now I'm working with pen and paper, writing the harmonizations of all the possible major scales with an added passing tone in every possible position... b7, b6, b5, b3 and b2... Originally Posted by bako
I've not yet finished, but some kind of pattern emerges...
1) If you build chords "mathematically", using alternated notes on the scale, you end in a repeating cycle of different voicing of the same chords...
...but (talking about C major scale as an example)
2) If you consider your starting chord the traditional Imaj7 (Cmaj7 in this case), the added note in the different positions stretches the harmony a bit, and generates a voice leading that's still our "major" environment, but with different colors...much more interesting and useful for passages on the fly that seem more complicated than they actually are...
eg. the dominant bebop ( C D E F G A Bb B C )
case 1)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A Bb B C
E F G A Bb B C D E
G A Bb B C D E F G
Bb B C D E F G A Bb
1=C7 2=Dm6/Bm7b5 3=C7 4=Dm6/Bm7b5 5=C7 6=Dm6/Bm7b5 7=C7 8=Dm6/Bm7b5
(... and this by the way to me is very similar to the methods of harmonizing scales, and chord melody, shown in many books where you alternate a diminished chord to the various inversions, to play a melody with the top note...)
but the interesting effect to me is the
case 2)
We start anyway from Cmaj7
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A Bb B C
E F G A Bb B C D E
G A Bb B C D E F G
B C D E F G A Bb B
... and the chords become
1=Cmaj7 2=Dm7 3=Em7b5 4=Fmaj7b5 5=Gm11 6=G/A 7=C13
You begin and end on Cmaj7, but along the way the harmony is "stretched" a bit, but not too much...
With drop2 voicings on the guitar these are easy to memorize and recall on the fly during improvisation...
I'm diggin' that at the moment...
I'm now looking what happens adding a 8th passing tone in the other positions... same principle, but different effects...
I don't know if this topic has been covered in any of the "big books" of theory... (tell me, just in case...)
But the fun is in discovering it all by myself!
The usual problem then remains how to apply it to your playing.
It must become part of your language/vocabulary... and this is a complete different problem!
bye
EnricoLast edited by e_del; 08-09-2014 at 04:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by e_del
The usual problem then remains how to apply it to your playing.
It must become part of your language/vocabulary... and this is a complete different problem!
My vehicle for re-wiring my brian and fingers to use C6dim harmonies was just running through changes and then trying note to repeat myself through each chorus.
I really like your second case with the altered chords through the harmonization. Great job.
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It surprised me too when I realized how easy it was... Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
also the major bebop (1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7) that Barry Harris shows in his videos gives another even cooler reharmonization method...
Other notes (b2 b3 b5) seem a bit harder to get under the fingers, but anyway give peculiar colors to the old plain major scale...
I'll try to put everything in a PDF ASAP ...
But maybe this is an already known topic covered in some book.. if anyone knows about it, please let me know...
There's no need to reinvent the wheel...
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Here it is.
Have a look to the attached files, with the results of my little exercise.
Many of these are actually some of the traditional bebop scales, but I don't know if the term "bebop" can be used for all of these, so I used the term "Maj+1"...
I think the most interesting harmonizations are the b6 (major bebop, the Barry Harris one), and b7 (dominant bebop).
Anyway, in any of these scales a "harmonic stretch" happens more and more intense as we reach the middle of the scale, then gradually the stretch reduces, until we reach upwards the first chord... plain maj7.
Some fingerings become VERY stretched, but it's interesting anyway looking at how the voices move.
If you wish, you could help naming the "?" chords i left within name, if it makes any sense, or correct the other ones (I wrote the names based on chord shapes I knew... probably not the best choice )
any suggestion/criticism is welcome.
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Wow, I wonder how that would work out as a lap steel tuning? That's an amazing variety of chords you can get in any one position: Maj, maj7, m7, dim, m7b5, aug5, dom7, and more. Plus you can get scalar lines straight across without lots of bar movement that's needed in 3rds-based tunings. Not sure there's any lap steel tuning that is this versatile... Originally Posted by bako
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Just adding a chromatic passing tone to the major scale creates the octatonic scales shown below. starting on the odd or even notes (1357 or 2468) emphasises chord tones alternating b/n 2 types:
1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7.........c c# d e f g a b ............ c d f a and c# e g b
Dm7 (F6) and A9 rootless / C#m7b5 / E min6
1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 .........c d d# e f g a b ........... c d# f a and d e g b
F7 and Em7 (G6) / C Ma9 (rootless)
1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7** .......c d e f f# g a b............ c e f# a and d f g b
D9 rootless F#m7b5 / Amin6 and G7
1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7.......... c d e f g g# a b............. c e g a and d f g# b
C6 (Am7) and Ddim7 / E7b9 rootless
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7**....... c d e f g a a# b .............c e g Bb and d f a b
C7 and G9 rootless /Bm7b5 / Dmin6
** these 2 modes are the same thing a 4th apart.Last edited by princeplanet; 08-12-2014 at 11:55 AM.
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see my post above. Before you dismiss this as being a pedantic exercise, try some of these out. There are a million ways to exploit these "inside out" octatonic scales, but here's some ideas to get you going, without changing chords! Originally Posted by e_del
Against D Dorian vamp-
the b2 scale starting on odd
the b5 scale starting on even
the b6 scale starting on odd OR even!
the b7 scale starting on odd
want more ideas? take the b2 scale transpose down a tone (begin on Bb) and start odd,
the b5 scale transposed up a 4th...
for a simple 17 to IV7 vamp-
try b5 scale- odd for D7 and even for G7
try b7 scale- odd for C7 and even for G7
If you go to the trouble to actually try these, you might, as I did after discovering them, wonder why you've never come across these ideas before...Last edited by princeplanet; 08-12-2014 at 08:54 AM.
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Wow,
I was mainly intrigued by the unusual chord harmonizations, but there's a whole lot of other things going on here!
... and it seems I was quite good at reinventing the wheel!! LOL (...but it was MY wheel!)
I'll definitely check your suggestions. Also, is there any example on records of how this sounds like?
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Well, like yourself, it was a personal discovery. I'm sure players would have explored these ideas in the past (Pat Martino), but as I've never read about it anywhere I don't know who, or how.... Players are very good at disguising their concepts or devices, especially those who never overdo them, or blend them seamlessly into other devices so you don't know where one ends and another begins...
However I will say that octatonic or "bebop" scales never seem to interest jazz guitarists that much, if they use bits of them it's only because it's embedded in any language they have learned. Let's face it, you never really hear an entire bebop scale, let alone a 2 or 3 octave one! So the point wouldn't be to play too many notes in succession, but to create patterns and sequences alongside chord tones as sort of embellishments to them. The trick is to know which scale you're on, and whether you're on the odd or even version.
To get you started on 2-5-1 type progressions, try b7(even) or b5(even) for both the 2 and 5, and b6 (odd) or b3 (even) for the Tonic. Then substitute the more adventurous options....Last edited by princeplanet; 08-12-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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PP, are you naming your options based on where you place your added (eighth) note? Originally Posted by princeplanet
I like your posts, above. You're making me think. Want to try this, tonight.
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Yeah, check out the scale options in post #14. I made this "discovery" in 2009 and posted here about it. Basically I got interested in what happens "in between" the bebop scales. like what happens if I start on the "wrong" note Originally Posted by M-ster
In the end, it's just another way to place passing tones in diatonic scales, but the 1357 vs 2468 duality in each scale presents lots of ideas beyond the usual Barry Harris C6 vs D dim (b6)...
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jasaco, Originally Posted by jasaco
Just in case you may not have heard about it, the Leavitt Tuning (C#, E, G, Bb, C ,D) was developed by William Leavitt of Berklee College. Leavitt began as a lap steel player and developed the tuning to facilitate playing standards on lap steel. Mike Idhe has recorded some tunes on lap steel using the Leavitt tuning that sound very good. You can hear them at his website.
Mike Ihde, The 333 Book, guitar instruction rock country blues jazz, guitar music books
Regards,
Jerome
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Please research Barry's 'Extra Note Rules'.
Please realize Sixth Diminished theory is largely for harmonic purposes.
Barry for the last decade or so has said (paraphrase) "the rules are more important than the scales".
This means the rhythm is more important than the notes.
One / three / five (etc) extra note(s) when starting on 1 / 3 / 5 / 7 of a scale works rhythmically.
Zero / two / four (etc) extra notes when starting on 2 / 4 / 6 of a scale works rhythmically.
Remember extra notes can be leaps or repeats of scale notes and not just chromatic non-scale notes.
Barry Harris, interesting, but… A lifetime of study is contained within.
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In his book Talk Jazz BeBop Studies in All Twelve Keys Roni Ben-Hur describes Barry Harris' melodic/linear approach in the same way Alan did in his book on Harris' harmonic concepts.
There are 10 chapters in the 268 page book that cover the Half Step Rules for Major and Dominant Scales, Arpeggio Studies, Surrounding Notes for Major and Minor Arpeggios, Diminished Chords, Surrounding Notes for Major 6 and Minor 6 Chords, Minor 6 and Major 6 Diminished Scales, Dominant Seven Scales, The Augmented Chord and Whole Tone Scales, I6/II7/V7 Turnaround using Diminished Chords and Major and Minor Arpeggios and Their Inversions. No Tab but but plenty of diagrams and a CD of the exercises.Last edited by monk; 08-13-2014 at 12:15 AM.
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Thanks, Jerome. Yup, I'm familiar with the Leavitt tuning and good pals with Mike Ihde. Different tuning from what we're discussing, of course, but does have the similarity of being able to get a lot of chords without slants. And. as with Leavitt, you can't just strum across the strings; you have to be selective in your grips. Originally Posted by monk
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Absolutely, and that brings me back to my first question (this thread drifted a bit)... Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Very interesting and consistent, but to me (not in my 20-30 anymore...
) seems that I'd have to put much of my bag of knowledge aside, and restart to re-learn many of the things that I already know... scary perspective!
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Live as if you were going die tomorrow.
Learn as if you were going live forever.
-Ghandi
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Originally Posted by e_del
Absolutely, and that brings me back to my first question (this thread drifted a bit)...
Very interesting and consistent, but to me (not in my 20-30 anymore... ) seems that I'd have to put much of my bag of knowledge aside, and restart to re-learn many of the things that I already know... scary perspective!
It takes a bit of getting used to.
The trick harmonically is to start thinking sixth sixth sixth.
Instead of the static Dm7 - think F6o scale.
Instead of the static G7alt - think Abm6o scale.
Instead of the static CMa7 - think C6o or G6 into C6.
It's about movement and improvisation while chording.
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you shouldn't have to re-learn everything you know, instead you can use it to supplement things you already know. Originally Posted by e_del
Absolutely, and that brings me back to my first question (this thread drifted a bit)...
Very interesting and consistent, but to me (not in my 20-30 anymore... ) seems that I'd have to put much of my bag of knowledge aside, and restart to re-learn many of the things that I already know... scary perspective!
if we look at the typical choices for common chords:
Cmaj7 =two choices. one is Cmaj6. pretty easy, 6 chords are a pretty standard sub for maj7 chords.
the other is Gmaj6, which has the same notes as Em7 (G B D E). Em7 as a substitute for Cmaj9 was one of the very first subs I learned back in the day, and I suspect that's true for many guitar players.
Dm7 = Fmaj6. Fmaj6 is already Dm7 (F A C D), so you could start by playing the Fmaj6 starting on the 'D' (giving you your garden variety Dm7) and working through the scale from there until you're comfortable.
G7 = two choices here.
for a regular dom9 chord, we can use Dmin6 (D F A B). note that only one note changes from the Dm7 here (the C goes down to B). you can get comfortable with it by playing the Dm6 starting on the B, giving you a Bm7b5. this is an extremely common sub for piano and guitar players alike -- the old T-Bone Walker 9th chord.
for an altered dom chord, we can use Abmin6 (Ab Cb/B Eb F). two ways you can think about it:
- as a relative of the "play melodic minor a half-step above the dominant chord to get an altered scale" trick
- as a tri-tone sub. for G7, the TTS is Db7. the T-Bone Walker chord for Db7 is Fm7b5, the same chord as... Abmin6.
once you get that comfortable, you can start adding the other chords from the maj6/dim or min6/dim scale and move chord voicings around. from there, you can start borrowing and... well, it never ends, does it?
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