Barry Harris, interesting, but...

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

What I like in the Barry Harris scale, that's each degree possesses the same dim7 chords.

Take,ie, a C60 scale and his 7 degrees:

on each degree you can construct D07 F07 Ab07 B07.

These 4 dim7 are" masking" 4 secondary V's:

Db7b9 G7b9 E7b9 Bb7b9

This do permit a temporary tonicisation using secondary dominant (V7) and secondary super-tonics (IIm's).

Speaking of secondary modulation,I can't agree totally to the opinions of Jonny Pac (02-24-2012 post #14) and his book.

For me,moving from one key to another is less ambiguous when you take for that secondary dominants,and not,as Jonny Pac ,a non-dominant chord of the borrowed scale

I can move fluidly between different scales with 3 different manners.

Let's take in C major scale the 2 following chords : / Cmaj7 / Eb7 /

-first case: Eb7 is an enrichment of a D Dorian,as any chord can be preceded by a dominant chord placed a half tone upper or a perfect fifth upper Cmaj7/ Eb7/ Dm/..

-second case:Modal interchange with the Abmajor scale,with (or not) borrowed chords of this scale
Cmaj7/Eb7/Dbmaj11+/..BUT passing thru with a Eb7 secondary dominant.Skipping the Eb7,as Jonny Pac does, and employing directly a chord of the Abmajor scale, introduces for me an ambiguity in the harmonic pattern.

-third case:a definitive modulation toward the Ab major key
Cmaj7/Eb7/Amaj7/..

HB

[MarkRhodes]

I don't know much about Barry's approach, just what I've gleaned from posts here. I am curious but not so much that I want to start A. Kingstone's book. (It is on my Wish List, and perhaps Santa Claus will get me a copy, but I'm working on enough right now as it is.)

But I did find this, at the official Barry Harris website: a tutorial (-pdf, 26 pages) for fifteen bucks.

The Official Barry Harris Website for Jazz Education and Information

Does anyone know anything more about it?

[docbop]

Here's a Roni Ben-Hur video talking a bit about the topic.

[zirenius]

Here's a Roni Ben-Hur video talking a bit about the topic.

Thanx for that. Ist that video taken from ohne of Roni's courses over at Mike's Masterclasses?

I always wanted to check these out.

[MarkRhodes]

Suppose we're working with the G6 diminished scale and running the chords (the four inversions of G6 + F#/A/C/Eb diminished chords). Do you think of the inversions as slash chords (G6/B, G6/D, G6/E) or just as G6?

It's not problem if one has, say, two bars of G6 and wants to create some movement. You're not reading that or writing it down. But if you're looking at the standard changes for a particular tune, do you see those changes as easily translatable into the major / minor 6 diminished scales?

[A. Kingstone]

Suppose we're working with the G6 diminished scale and running the chords (the four inversions of G6 + F#/A/C/Eb diminished chords). Do you think of the inversions as slash chords (G6/B, G6/D, G6/E) or just as G6?

It's not problem if one has, say, two bars of G6 and wants to create some movement. You're not reading that or writing it down. But if you're looking at the standard changes for a particular tune, do you see those changes as easily translatable into the major / minor 6 diminished scales?

Think about the scale as G6o (G Sixth Diminished).

As you suggest, movement on G.

Try it as Em7 into a spicy A7alt.

For movement (which is our goal) try Bbm6o for the A7alt.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Mark,
When I see changes now I am automatically thinking about the maj6dim scale relates. Just like anything else once you get it under your fingers you stop actively thinking about it and it becomes a natural part of your playing.

For example,

lets take

Amin7 / D7 / Gmin7 / C7 / FMaj7

i would automatically play

CM6 / D#o (D7b9) / BbM6 / Eo (C7b9) / CM6

The way I chose these chords comes from the natural flow of the inversions as they lay on the neck not necessarily because of the theory. It's a more visual experience for me than cerebral.

but I'm not necessarily thinking those chords. I'm thinking am7/d7/etc...
its just I've got the conversion ingrained as part of how I play. Just like how you might know to play some outside Lydian dominant lick off a particular chord. You're not doing the conversion, you're just doing the lick, but if you had to think about it, you could easily describe what you wre doing.

As as an aside the progression I played was all in one position too. How frickin cool is that?

[destinytot]

Experimenting with the first phrase of Autumn Leaves

[destinytot]

I'm very excited about going beyond what I'm currently able to hear (mostly arpeggios, line clichés and patterns) by exploring Sixth Diminished sounds.

No doubt it'll involve lots of trial and error, but I know there will also be lots of beautiful sounds that will move me - and I believe this is the key to their assimilation.

Hal Galper explains this very well in this great 12-minute video on What to Practise, arguing that we should 'practise what we respond to emotionally'.

[destinytot]

A question: would Sixth Diminished harmony work for ensemble arrangements? Is it the harmony behind the George Shearing sound, with its particular instrumentation? How about for strings, or voices? And how about voicings? Thanks in advance for thoughts, comments, information and/or suggestions!

[MarkRhodes]

I'm very excited about going beyond what I'm currently able to hear (mostly arpeggios, line clichés and patterns) by exploring Sixth Diminished sounds.

No doubt it'll involve lots of trial and error, but I know there will also be lots of beautiful sounds that will move me - and I believe this is the key to their assimilation.

Hal Galper explains this very well in this great 12-minute video on What to Practise, arguing that we should 'practise what we respond to emotionally'.

I like the Galper vid a lot. I love the part where he talks about "clues". I think Hal is dead right about that. You have to delve into what you "dig." For me, a lot of it is bluesy stuff, which is why I love Herb Ellis so much. But for a long time I thought I should focus more on other, more sophisticated things. (And I'm not against other more sophisticated things, but I really do need to embrace the things that I love...)

"Practice what you like." Yeah, I'm good with that!

[MarkRhodes]

This may seem obvious to others but it is not to me, so I will ask: what about chord melody?

I learned a set of grips from Robert Conti's "Chord Melody Assembly Line." They aren't his voicings. They're standard one. But he shows you how to put each note on top of a chord and gives the basics of handling diminished chords (-or substituting diminished chords for dominant ones.) It's not going to get you to Carnegie Hall, but it's a great primer for making your own chord melodies from fakebook lead sheets. Ground zero, you might say. (His more advanced work on this topic is "The Formula" which is another story entirely.)

Anyway, do you have to sort of start all over with the maj/min 6th diminished scales?

[destinytot]

That rarest of things, virtuoso bebop guitarist (the genuine article) Sean Levitt:

Photo of Sean playing with Chet Baker:
https://www.facebook.com/14080224940...type=1&theater

[destinytot]

Anyway, do you have to sort of start all over with the maj/min 6th diminished scales?

When I was looking on the net for method books about 6º scales for (guitar) chordal playing, I saw a great description of two types of guitarists: 'hitters' and 'movers'. I can't remember exactly where I saw it (it may have been on jazzworkshops.com), but it drew a distinction between guitarists that play chords by 'hitting' a grip/shape, and those that play chords by 'moving' through them. It seems to me that learning to use 6º scales is about becoming a 'mover'. However, as far as harmony is concerned, I don't believe it's a case of starting all over again.

I think exploring 6º scale harmony is a matter of looking for finer shades of nuance and colour within familiar diatonic Major/Minor sounds. I don't think that's for everyone - a lot of beautiful music is made without 6º harmony - but, personally, I have to say it 'speaks' to me in ways that, for example, the Lydian Chromatic Concept doesn't, i.e. directly, accessibly and in the joyful/melancholic language of jazz. (Yes, a lot of beautiful music is made without 6º harmony - but, to my mind, The Greats show us that beautiful music sounds even more beautiful with it.)

The decision to delve deeper and commit to learning 6º scale harmony is a 'no-brainer' for me. I realise that I've barely scratched the surface of what's available, of course, but I recognise it in the few chord phrases I've copied from Wes (and from Oscar Moore with Nat 'King' Cole's trio). I'd be quite content using these if not for the fact that my single-note playing, which has improved technically (as a result of on-going work on picking and fingering), is ridden with clichés.

I don't think my overuse of clichés necessarily results from an over-simplified approach to harmony. On the contrary, my approach has allowed me a reasonable - if limited - range of expression, while playing chord tones in a way that is, I believe, effective because it's rhythmically strong. As has been said several times in this thread and elsewhere (Hal Galper: "Dizzy gives primacy to rhythm"), rhythm trumps all.

Having neither the time nor the desire to take on further 'work' to distract me from the vision and musical goals I've established for myself, I'd happily go on with the approach I've been using if I hadn't found out about the rhythmic and harmonic palette achieved by the (perhaps deceptively) simple addition of one note to otherwise familiar scales.

The truth is, frankly, I'd (almost) given up hope of ever playing bebop. Thank goodness there are teachers around who have not only theoretical knowledge of bebop but also the requisite skills (as well as wisdom, grace and style) to convey it. All I can say is... Bird Lives!

So.... another question: does anyone have any tips on playing bebop heads on guitar (preserving the articulation of the language)?

[dingusmingus]

This may seem obvious to others but it is not to me, so I will ask: what about chord melody?

I learned a set of grips from Robert Conti's "Chord Melody Assembly Line." They aren't his voicings. They're standard one. But he shows you how to put each note on top of a chord and gives the basics of handling diminished chords (-or substituting diminished chords for dominant ones.) It's not going to get you to Carnegie Hall, but it's a great primer for making your own chord melodies from fakebook lead sheets. Ground zero, you might say. (His more advanced work on this topic is "The Formula" which is another story entirely.)

Anyway, do you have to sort of start all over with the maj/min 6th diminished scales?

Mark,
Have you checked out Randy Vincent's "Drop Two Book"? It's on exactly this topic, and is very well done. If you learn these 6th-diminished scales as scales in drop 2 (or I suppose any other voicing) then you'll have voicings with every (diatonic) note on top.

It sounds like Alan's may be on this topic too, I'm not sure. I may have to get Alan's too!

[princeplanet]

So.... another question: does anyone have any tips on playing bebop heads on guitar (preserving the articulation of the language)?

Great question. To emulate the horn phrasing of the great bop heads, I know I've had to literally dozens of figerings, and numerous picking permutations until it sounds like I'm getting the "feel' right. So much harder than a piano player copying stuff! One thing I had to undo regarding right hand technique was to forgo up/down picking coi-inciding with up and down beats.

For example: starting a downbeat with an upstroke, playing another note and then sweeping up (down) the lower notes of an arp, changing pick direction, then sliding, hitting another note, hammering, picking the next interval across 4 strings but up stroke on the high note in preparation for another direction sweep of 3 arp notes etc etc etc . If you wanna play Bird heads and sound strong, you gotta figure out the right hand stuff more than the left hand stuff. There's so many variations, nearly all of them bad! Once you figure out what works, you do it a thousand times so you're never unsure how to pick it. Don't look at the left hand, stare at the right and correct errors until you can play the damn thing without looking at either hand.

[destinytot]

Sean Levitt playing Barbados

[TheGrandWazoo]

I could'nt have arranged this unless I had studied Alan's Book on Barry Harris

Pardon the volume, my iphone is a POS!!!!!

I can't get started

Have you met miss jones

[destinytot]

I could'nt have arranged this unless I had studied Alan's Book on Barry Harris

Great stuff! I particularly like Have You Met Miss Jones? I'd love to hear it with bass, drums and perhaps a horn.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark,
Have you checked out Randy Vincent's "Drop Two Book"? It's on exactly this topic, and is very well done. If you learn these 6th-diminished scales as scales in drop 2 (or I suppose any other voicing) then you'll have voicings with every (diatonic) note on top.

It sounds like Alan's may be on this topic too, I'm not sure. I may have to get Alan's too!

Thanks for the suggestions. No, I haven't read R. Vincent's book on Drop Two Voicings. I've heard good things about it but haven't taken the plunge. I'll put it on my Amazon wish list.

[MarkRhodes]

I could'nt have arranged this unless I had studied Alan's Book on Barry Harris

Pardon the volume, my iphone is a POS!!!!!

I can't get started / Have you met miss jones

Good stuff! I'm impressed. I especially liked the first one, "I Can't Get Started With You." Lovely tune. I like what you're doing.

Looks like I've got a lot of work cut out for me, but I don't mind the work itself. (What I wish I had back was some of the time / energy spent chasing after false scents and bad ideas....)

[monk]

I could'nt have arranged this unless I had studied Alan's Book on Barry Harris

Pardon the volume, my iphone is a POS!!!!!

I can't get started

Have you met miss jones

It's evident from hearing your clips that you've not only done your homework but you've worked hard. Great Job! I hope as you continue working with Alan's book that you'll post more clips.

[NSJ]

This may seem obvious to others but it is not to me, so I will ask: what about chord melody?

I learned a set of grips from Robert Conti's "Chord Melody Assembly Line." They aren't his voicings. They're standard one. But he shows you how to put each note on top of a chord and gives the basics of handling diminished chords (-or substituting diminished chords for dominant ones.) It's not going to get you to Carnegie Hall, but it's a great primer for making your own chord melodies from fakebook lead sheets. Ground zero, you might say. (His more advanced work on this topic is "The Formula" which is another story entirely.)

Anyway, do you have to sort of start all over with the maj/min 6th diminished scales?

I worked on this a few years ago with my teacher he had me use Roni Ben Hurr's (OMG what a cool name--straight out of Hollywood --Cecil B would dig it ) "Chordability".

im not well versed with this topic except Chordability. so I think the application is principally related to chords and creating a vibrant sounding sense of movement and harmonic tension and interest in a seemingly static situation. This the maj minor 6 diminished scale is used like a form of diatonic modal planing (like fourth chords or 1st inversion triads you move up and down the maj min 6 diminished scale). Eg subbing C6 dim scale for the ii chord in a turnaround. Sub a min 6 dim scale for a static viim7b5 or a maj6 dim scale for a IVM9 chord.

diminished chords are chords of movement--this is a great substitute for the vanilla Conti chords you probably have learned. all you have to do is learn your sixth chord in root and inversion positions, the ii, IV, #V etc are harmonzed by a dim chords. Plus you can add borrowed notes from each dom7 associated with the dim chord.

[destinytot]

Roni Ben-Hur's Talk Jazz, on the other hand, is a thorough exposition of scales, triads and arpeggios (in adherence to Barry Harris's Half-Step Rules).

[0zoro]

Nice playing Mr Wazoo!