Barry Harris, interesting, but...

[TheGrandWazoo]

It takes a bit of getting used to.

The trick harmonically is to start thinking sixth sixth sixth.

Instead of the static Dm7 - think F6o scale.

Instead of the static G7alt - think Abm6o scale.

Instead of the static CMa7 - think C6o or G6 into C6.

It's about movement and improvisation while chording.

Alan,
I may have asked this question a while ago.

Should I be thinking 'scale' rather than 'chords'?

Example: When I play Dm7 to G7alt, I'm 'seeing' the F6 chord inversion voicing(fingering) on the fretboard and then the Abm6 vocings(fingerings). I'm not thinking F6o scale and then Abm6o scale. Am I doing myself a dis-service here? Im making it work, but am I missing out on other possibilities of the theory?

Thanks,
Christopher

[A. Kingstone]

Alan,
I may have asked this question a while ago.

Should I be thinking 'scale' rather than 'chords'?

Example: When I play Dm7 to G7alt, I'm 'seeing' the F6 chord inversion voicing(fingering) on the fretboard and then the Abm6 vocings(fingerings). I'm not thinking F6o scale and then Abm6o scale. Am I doing myself a dis-service here? Im making it work, but am I missing out on other possibilities of the theory?

Thanks,
Christopher

Christopher: The chords come from the scales so yes indeed think of the scale. That's what keeps us moving.

(had to cancel bike trip-mechanical problems)

[princeplanet]

It takes a bit of getting used to.

The trick harmonically is to start thinking sixth sixth sixth.

Instead of the static Dm7 - think F6o scale.

Instead of the static G7alt - think Abm6o scale.

Instead of the static CMa7 - think C6o or G6 into C6.

It's about movement and improvisation while chording.

Do you mean: FM7 - Gdim FM7 etc / G7alt- Bbdim7-G7alt etc / CM - D dim - C etc (or GM - A dim - G etc)??

What about single note "bebop" scales for improv against these?: FM7 add b6 / AbMM addb6 / C add b6 (or G add b6) ??

[princeplanet]

In his book Talk Jazz BeBop Studies in All Twelve Keys Roni Ben-Hur describes Barry Harris' melodic/linear approach in the same way Alan did in his book on Harris' harmonic concepts.

There are 10 chapters in the 268 page book that cover the Half Step Rules for Major and Dominant Scales, Arpeggio Studies, Surrounding Notes for Major and Minor Arpeggios, Diminished Chords, Surrounding Notes for Major 6 and Minor 6 Chords, Minor 6 and Major 6 Diminished Scales, Dominant Seven Scales, The Augmented Chord and Whole Tone Scales, I6/II7/V7 Turnaround using Diminished Chords and Major and Minor Arpeggios and Their Inversions. No Tab but but plenty of diagrams and a CD of the exercises.

I'm interested in this book you mention, but do you think it's just showing what a lot of players end up working out for themselves? I mean, I always find myself exploring ways to "dither" around chord tones so I'm landing on them right (when I want to), all the usual enclosures (incl double, triple, diff combos of chrom and diatonic etc etc)..

Do you think this book can show us things we'd probably not come up with ourselves? If so, what kind of things?

[dasein]

Do you mean: FM7 - Gdim FM7 etc / G7alt- Bbdim7-G7alt etc / CM - D dim - C etc (or GM - A dim - G etc)??

What about single note "bebop" scales for improv against these?: FM7 add b6 / AbMM addb6 / C add b6 (or G add b6) ??

C sixth diminished scale = C D E F G Ab A B
harmonized, you alternate between Cmaj6 (C E G A) and D/F/Ab/B dim7

C minor sixth diminished scale = C D Eb F G Ab A B
harmonized, you alternate between Cmin6 (C Eb G A) and D/F/Ab/B dim7

for single note bebop scales, don't over think it:

| Dm7 | G7 | = G dominant scale (G A B C D E F). don't even think of it as a ii-V, just think of it as one big cadence resolving to C.

C maj6 = C major scale.

use chromatic notes to land chord tones on strong beats (see Alan's remark above: the rhythm is the most important consideration). for more interesting sounds on the dom7 chord, you could use other dom7 subs (Bb7, Db7, E7)

[A. Kingstone]

Do you mean: FM7 - Gdim FM7 etc / G7alt- Bbdim7-G7alt etc / CM - D dim - C etc (or GM - A dim - G etc)??

What about single note "bebop" scales for improv against these?: FM7 add b6 / AbMM addb6 / C add b6 (or G add b6) ??

I'm not familiar with bebop scales but yes the Sixth Diminished 8 note scales work with or without 'extra notes'.

Instead of the static Dm7 - think F6o scale.

Instead of the static G7alt - think Abm6o scale.

Instead of the static CMa7 - think C6o scale

[princeplanet]

I'm not familiar with bebop scales but yes the Sixth Diminished 8 note scales work with or without 'extra notes'.

Instead of the static Dm7 - think F6o scale.

Instead of the static G7alt - think Abm6o scale.

Instead of the static CMa7 - think C6o scale

Yes, but by F6o scale, do you mean : F G A Bb C Db D E ? with the Bb?

[monk]

I'm interested in this book you mention, but do you think it's just showing what a lot of players end up working out for themselves? I mean, I always find myself exploring ways to "dither" around chord tones so I'm landing on them right (when I want to), all the usual enclosures (incl double, triple, diff combos of chrom and diatonic etc etc)..

Do you think this book can show us things we'd probably not come up with ourselves? If so, what kind of things?

If you can already solo to your satisfaction on bebop tunes you probably don't need the book. I'm in no position to make that evaluation for you. There's probably a preview on either the Mel Bay website or Amazon.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Christopher: The chords come from the scales so yes indeed think of the scale. That's what keeps us moving.

(had to cancel bike trip-mechanical problems)

Thanks Alan. I'll start incorporating that in my voicings exercise. I'll start focusing on the scales now as I run the those drop2s 'round the circle. [building that speed up]

(Bummer about the bike. Sounded like a great trip)

Christopher

[A. Kingstone]

Yes, but by F6o scale, do you mean : F G A Bb C Db D E ? with the Bb?

Yes.

I've never heard Barry refer to an avoid note.

[princeplanet]

Sure, the full diminished chord is a good "joiner" chord between a given chord's 4 different inversions, but surely any chord containing a tritone can also be a good "joiner". Particularly when said chord is also derived from an Octatonic scale formed by the addition of just one chromatic "joiner"....

Consider-

1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 ------ c c# d e f g a b -------- c d f a ----- c# e g b

Dm7 - C# Half Dim


1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 ------- c d e f f# g a b --------- c e f# a ------ d f g b

F# HalfDim - G7


1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 ------- c d d# e f g a b --------- c d# f a ------- d e g b

F7 - rootless C maj 9


So your ii - V - I could be: Dm7 - C#m7b5 -Dm7 etc / G7 - F#m7b5 - G7 etc / CM9 - F7 - CM9 etc

No? What's the deal about it having to be a full diminished chord?

[A. Kingstone]

No? What's the deal about it having to be a full diminished chord?

Some observations.

The diminished is where Barry starts in his theory. That's Barry. I happen to find his system vast and elegant.


Barry says "the flat two diminished goes to the two". (similar to your 1st example)

Barry says "the flat three diminished goes to the three". (One substitute)


Your half diminished 'joiner' chord is a Minor Sixth as are all four chords when you raise a note in a diminished chord a semi-tone.


Your scales look like interesting places for exploration. Run with it.

See what kind of sounds you get moving harmonically:

Your 1st Example

-- c d f a ----- c# e g b

Drop 2

FCDA (hey that's F6)

GC#EB (Em6)





Your 2nd Example

c e f# a ------ d f g b

Drop 2

F#CEA (Am6)

GDFB (G7)




Your 3rd Example

c d# f a ------- d e g b

Drop 2

FCEbA (F7)

GDEB (G6)


These could easily be inverted through your scales. I like the way you think.

[destinytot]

If you can already solo to your satisfaction on bebop tunes you probably don't need the book. I'm in no position to make that evaluation for you. There's probably a preview on either the Mel Bay website or Amazon.

I bought this when it came out, but I've only just started using it - and I'm glad I have.

The CD, which contains recordings of all the studies in the book, provides exactly the sort of practical rhythmic model/exemplification I need to grasp and apply the concepts.

I'm really enjoying playing along (picking with my thumb and fretting with three fingers), and it's good to know that I can look in the book to find which notes have been added when I can't work them out for myself.

[Groyniad]

i've been totally into this stuff for a long time now - i now think of diatonic harmony in terms of maj and min 6th diminished scales (single notes and chords). my motivation was simple - i wanted to sound much much much more like barry harris (and bud powell).

there's a set of four barry harris dvds in which he teaches a bunch of advanced students some of his key concepts. its over 100 bucks - but its worth every penny because you get to see barry harris teach at length. he SINGS everything - hardly plays the piano at all - and he prefaces everything he sings with 'and you say....' or 'and he says....' and then he spits out the most wonderful hard be bop ideas (not hard bop ideas - intense be-bop ideas). whether or not you use it as a basis of serious study it is a truly inspiring piece of work. some of the finest teaching i've ever encountered in any field. i think barry harris is an astonishing musical genius (as all the greats are of course - but you don't get four hours of bud powell explaining how be-bop really works). again - you don't have to commit to studying 'the barry harris method' in order to profit immensely from these videos. (absolutely no affiliation with bh)

[destinytot]

Hi Groyniad!

Those DVDs are great - I have them, too. The Roni Ben-Hur Talk Jazz play-along CD sounds like one of Barry Harris's students doing directed practise of scales with a rhythm section. Hearing a guitarist model 8-note scales and arpeggios with surround notes in all keys is of immense value to me, but having the rules for their rhythmic placement not only spelled out but demonstrated to me is...well, priceless. I have track 14 playing now; familiar line clichés, but heard as a continuous flow of pure be-bòp rhythm. (No affiliation here either!)

[destinytot]

Re. Roni Ben-Hur's Talk Jazz, I've just read Chapter 10 (on dominant scales), and I have to say that I found the ideas - all of which are attributed to Barry Harris - to be very fresh and highly enlightening. I also saw that the book ends with a particularly well-thought out arpeggio study, covering the full range of the guitar. I'm very keen to start practising.

PS Barry Harris interview recorded just over a week ago:

and a YouTube channel of clips from Barry Harris workshops at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague:
https://www.youtube.com/user/BarryHarrisVideos/feed

[zirenius]

Re. Roni Ben-Hur's Talk Jazz, I've just read Chapter 10 (on dominant scales), and I have to say that I found the ideas - all of which are attributed to Barry Harris - to be very fresh and highly enlightening. I also saw that the book ends with a particularly well-thought out arpeggio study, covering the full range of the guitar. I'm very keen to start practising.

PS Barry Harris interview recorded just over a week ago:

and a YouTube channel of clips from Barry Harris workshops at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague:
https://www.youtube.com/user/BarryHarrisVideos/feed

Thanx a lot for his interview! I got to say, I had a dedicated course in college that was dedicated to Barry's chordal and linear studies. They called it "practical solfège" (which I find to be an interesting name for it). It's great to see the material also treated here and also to have Mr. Kingstone himself aboard, whose book we touched upon in my main subjet lessons and that is still on the "to do soon"-shelf... (that one's somehow always full, isn't it?)

[TheGrandWazoo]

I would put a Kingstone's book at the top. I spent the past year basically reprogramming myself to the the mj6dim inversions and it has forever changed the way I play. A Dom chord is no longer just a 7 chord; its a minor 6 inversion or a diminished inversion or some other chord possibility. It opened up a whole new world of connections for evey chord in a tune.

The problem I have now is it can be hard getting thru a new tune as every chord change now has a million possibilities for the next chord.

Worth every cent and your time.

[destinytot]

I would put a Kingstone's book at the top. I spent the past year basically reprogramming myself to the the mj6dim inversions and it has forever changed the way I play. A Dom chord is no longer just a 7 chord; its a minor 6 inversion or a diminished inversion or some other chord possibility. It opened up a whole new world of connections for evey chord in a tune.

The problem I have now is it can be hard getting thru a new tune as every chord change now has a million possibilities for the next chord.

Worth every cent and your time.

Thanks very much for posting this comment.

Actually, I took the liberty of emailing Alan Kingstone with a question topics covered in his book. I feel greatly encouraged by what he's written in his kind (and very prompt) reply. (I'm sure he won't mind if I share part of it: "The book is about putting Barry's chord movements on guitar. It will help you be creative in your accompaniment and spontaneous chordal improvisation by moving away from static chords and thinking in terms of movement via 8 note chord scales. It takes a lot of work but the results will come.")

Having avoided it for years (because I've never felt up to the task of doing it properly), I'm excited about learning to play be-bop the Barry Harris way. Any tips or advice appreciated.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Alan's book is about harmony, not single line soloing. My tip would be to focus on both the major and minor closes voicings. Get these under your fingers. Run them through the cycle up and down the neck. Then, laterally, run up the scale in one position. Consider these as rudiments studies like when you were just starting out. Move into the next chapters slowly. Internalize what is being taught. This book isn't a quick fixer upper. It is study of harmonic relationships based on the 6 chord and the dim chord. If you were to make it a part of your daily routine, as I did, you will be able to chmage the way you see the feet board and harmony.

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm only 1/3rd of the way through the book and I started on it over a year ago. It won't take you that long. I just have made it a regular part of my routine so I am purposely moving through it exceuciating slow to really internalize. I'll take a break from it as a study piece but I now use those chord voiceings and harmony as 95% of evey chord change I'm play in a tune. Ok. I'll sop gushing. I'm just a fanatical BH convert.

[0zoro]

These last several posts were very interesting (well the entire thread was) as I have just recently received my copy of Alan Kingstone´s book. After the initial excitement after waiting 4 weeks for delivery I felt overwhelmed and lost. The approach clearly demands a rethink which I hadn´t expected to be of this magnitude for me. I suppose just grinding away at the chords for a while, as mentioned above is the only way to go. I wish Alan had put some sort of how to start, or is it so apparent that I should have seen it? His book would clearly make for its own thread as a study!

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ozoro,
It is a paradigm shift. Memorizing the chord inversion patterns was my key to unlocking the theory as then I could easily take a topic from one paragraph and quickly apply it on the fret-board. Again, this isn't a quick-fix book to give you a tool like a book about chord extensions or alt ii-V voicings; it's a complete restructured harmony that just happens to fit in perfectly in all the nooks and crannies of standard harmony.

I explain it to myself like this:

In non-Maj6o harmony, I have to make the chords have altered notes. In Maj6o harmony, the altered notes are already there. i don't have to make that chord a b9, it just already is.

[0zoro]

I explain it to myself like thisOzoro,
It is a paradigm shift. :

Thanks TGW, it makes me feel better to know that its not that I´m not awake, but rather that the shift in itself is big. I really wasn´t prepared for it. On the other hand I´ve seen several of Barry Harris vid´s and the ideas seem so good that I can´t let it go. So I´ll just have to start plugging away. At the moment I´m working on "Darn That Dream", and I have been able to get some ideas about movement that I never had before, weather Barry, or Alan Kingstone, would want anything to do with them I don´t know, but still..................... I´m inspired!

[M-ster]

PS Barry Harris interview recorded just over a week ago: ...

Loved that, destinytot. Thanks for posting it!